7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

[Mythical Revolution]

Iniesta has always played CM. Barcelona's 3 man midfield needs 3 CMs, all with different focus roles, but 3 CMs nonetheless. Iniesta's focus role might have shifted a bit last year, but he's always been a CM for us. AMs are pure attacking midfield positions, and that's what Coutinho is. His role and responsibilities would increase exponentially if he were to be played as CM for Barca.

I would say Iniesta was a AM/CM, since he was the link between our midfield and attack. It would be a mistake to assume that Coutinho won't evolve as a player, and in any case there is no need for him to play like Iniesta, were he to replace him. Our style of play is completely different now, and assuming that we sign a player like Gundogan or Pogba, we would be essentially playing with a double pivot, which would enable us to field a pure AM if we wanted to.

 

[Sea_of_Frost]

I would say Iniesta was a AM/CM, since he was the link between our midfield and attack. It would be a mistake to assume that Coutinho won't evolve as a player, and in any case there is no need for him to play like Iniesta, were he to replace him. Our style of play is completely different now, and assuming that we sign a player like Gundogan or Pogba, we would be essentially playing with a double pivot, which would enable us to field a pure AM if we wanted to.

Please elaborate.

Pogba is a traditional box-to-box mid like Rakitic, and Gundogan is a bit like Xavi.
How does that make it a double pivot?

 

[Bran the Greenseer]

Coutinho plays more like Ronaldinho/Hazard/Messi than Iniesta, creative winger. And we already have Messi so it doesn't make much sense to get him.

 

[Co0ter]

I'm not sure why a player like Hazard or Coutinho can't thrive in multiple positions. Hazard plays as a LW for Chelsea but he has all the skills to play as LM for us, the same as Coutinho. Coutinho is better defensively and has a higher workrate, however he loses possession more often BUT he takes many more risks. Taking less risks and being more mindful of when to penetrate is something a player can alter and learn. Not to mention Coutinho has played as a CM and AM before with success.

Messi was a WC RW and Pep moved him to false 9...where he was also WC. Messi could play as an AM or CM and still be WC. Even Suarez played a very different role at Liverpool...we basically asked him to sit back near the last man (like we did with Ibra but it didn't work out) and occupy defenders/make runs off them. With liverpool he was everywhere-in midfield, playing off another striker or on the wing.

Neymar is our LW but he could play false 9 too although I definitely prefer Suarez in the middle (I wanted it even before we signed him...but people told me I was crazy to remove Messi from a position he scored 50 plus goals a season ).

The point is, highly talented players who have THE RIGHT attributes can play in different positions just as efficiently. Iniesta on the LW is a good example of a bad position change. He is creative and best when dribbling at opposition in space...he is fast WITH THE BALL, he doesn't have pace off the ball, for example when pushing the ball in a tight space and beating an opponent to it- the wing requires this more often since you are pinched near the end line and have less space.

Kovacic was the best choice, but he's gone. Coutinho is a different choice, but a good different. Still the vision and dribbling at opponent, but perhaps worse at possession while better at attacking. Either are way better options than Pogba. Gundogan plays more like Xavi, but Xavi's style is not our style anymore....Gundogan would be an ALTERNATIVE style off the bench, not another player to fit our style for rotation or come off the bench.

 

[Icarium]

We don't need any wingers tbh, in the current system full backs have the entire wing for them to attack and the midfielders will cover for them whenever necessary. All three forwards play more centrally then. I just can't see a place for coutinho and hazard in the current setup.

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

Gundogan plays more like Xavi, but Xavi's style is not our style anymore....Gundogan would be an ALTERNATIVE style off the bench, not another player to fit our style for rotation or come off the bench.

Off topic, but I think you underestimate the value of a Gundogan/Xavi moving pivot style player. Would have been invaluable against the press of Atletico, exactly what Barça was missing to relieve pressure, as well as aid in changing sides more quickly and effectively (i.e. find Messi).

 

[DrPepper]

Please elaborate.

Pogba is a traditional box-to-box mid like Rakitic, and Gundogan is a bit like Xavi.
How does that make it a double pivot?

Being black, tall and strong automatically makes you a holding midfielder.

 

[EdmondDantes]

Suarez's favourite Premier League player apparently:

[youtube]ND_baI_WY5Y[/youtube]

From the man himself.

 

[BBZ8800]

We definitely need midfielder, but more controlling than attacking type - Gundogan, Verratti, Pjanic, Koke maybe even Herrera (who may be cheap). Also backup for LB, backup forward (can be solved in winter).

From what I have read, Roma's fans don't want Pjanic anymore even in their starting 11...

 

[BBZ8800]

Please elaborate.

Pogba is a traditional box-to-box mid like Rakitic, and Gundogan is a bit like Xavi.
How does that make it a double pivot?

I share the same feeling.

Rijkaard's 433 was almost the same as Lucho's.
With similar positions and with a more direct style of play than Pep's 433.

Anyway, during Rijkaard, our main midfield trio was a pure defensive midfielder (Edmilson, Motta, Marquez) and then 2 Cms, usually Xavi and Deco.
When Xavi and Deco played, Xavi was Xavi (as always), a pure Cm, while Deco was like Iniesta today, some kind of a Cm-Amc.

Also, when we bought Deco, Rijkaard said that our team suffered when we had only one playmaker (Ronaldinho), and that when our opponents double mark Ronaldinho, we get into creative problems.
So, the coaching team decided to buy another playmaker, who will do the hard work when Ronnie is heavily marked.
That was Deco.

So, even before Deco, we had Xavi and other midfielders, but coaches didn't consider them as "playmakers" but only as "regular midfielders".

Today, imo, Iniesta is also a playmaker, while Raki is "just" a midfielder.

In that sense, I wouldn't want to see a midfield duo Pogba-Rakitic.
Who is playmaker here (in Barca's style of a playmaker)? No one.
They are more or less the same type of a hard working midfielders who run a lot, but who are not exactly something like 10's, like Deco or even Iniesta.

Gundogan, the same story. He is Xavi, and not Iniesta.
If we already have one Xavi (aka Rakitic today), what we will do with another one?
There is a reason why Lucho NEVER played Rakitic-Xavi midfield in important matches=because we lack a true creator, a true AMC in that combination.

Iniesta and Rafinha are both Cm-Amc's and they were usually paired with Rakitic, who is a classic CM in our formation.

Anyway, my post is not about Coutinho. I have no idea yet what to think about him.
If we want Pogba, then Rakitic needs to be sold or benched.
Pogba-Rakitic, and even Rakitic-Gundogan doesn't make sense (imo).

Those combinations are waaaaaaaaaaaay too defensive for our style.
We would surely get more possession and control, but we would lose some lethalness infront of goal (and an extra man always lurking around the box, but also thus making more space for MSN trio and leaving less available defenders to mark Messi, Ney and Suarez.)

 

[Alik]

Anyway, my post is not about Coutinho. I have no idea yet what to think about him.
If we want Pogba, then Rakitic needs to be sold or benched.
Pogba-Rakitic, and even Rakitic-Gundogan doesn't make sense (imo).

Those combinations are waaaaaaaaaaaay too defensive for our style.
We would surely get more possession and control, but we would lose some lethalness infront of goal (and an extra man always lurking around the box, but also thus making more space for MSN trio and leaving less available defenders to mark Messi, Ney and Suarez.)

I believe we could do fine with Rakitic-Gundogan. But even if we couldn't play them at the same, Rakitic needs just as much back up as Iniesta if not more.

 

[jonxxxj]

I share the same feeling.

Rijkaard's 433 was almost the same as Lucho's.
With similar positions and with a more direct style of play than Pep's 433.

Anyway, during Rijkaard, our main midfield trio was a pure defensive midfielder (Edmilson, Motta, Marquez) and then 2 Cms, usually Xavi and Deco.
When Xavi and Deco played, Xavi was Xavi (as always), a pure Cm, while Deco was like Iniesta today, some kind of a Cm-Amc.

Also, when we bought Deco, Rijkaard said that our team suffered when we had only one playmaker (Ronaldinho), and that when our opponents double mark Ronaldinho, we get into creative problems.
So, the coaching team decided to buy another playmaker, who will do the hard work when Ronnie is heavily marked.
That was Deco.

So, even before Deco, we had Xavi and other midfielders, but coaches didn't consider them as "playmakers" but only as "regular midfielders".

Today, imo, Iniesta is also a playmaker, while Raki is "just" a midfielder.

In that sense, I wouldn't want to see a midfield duo Pogba-Rakitic.
Who is playmaker here (in Barca's style of a playmaker)? No one.
They are more or less the same type of a hard working midfielders who run a lot, but who are not exactly something like 10's, like Deco or even Iniesta.

Gundogan, the same story. He is Xavi, and not Iniesta.
If we already have one Xavi (aka Rakitic today), what we will do with another one?
There is a reason why Lucho NEVER played Rakitic-Xavi midfield in important matches=because we lack a true creator, a true AMC in that combination.

Iniesta and Rafinha are both Cm-Amc's and they were usually paired with Rakitic, who is a classic CM in our formation.

Anyway, my post is not about Coutinho. I have no idea yet what to think about him.
If we want Pogba, then Rakitic needs to be sold or benched.
Pogba-Rakitic, and even Rakitic-Gundogan doesn't make sense (imo).

Those combinations are waaaaaaaaaaaay too defensive for our style.
We would surely get more possession and control, but we would lose some lethalness infront of goal (and an extra man always lurking around the box, but also thus making more space for MSN trio and leaving less available defenders to mark Messi, Ney and Suarez.)

Perfect. For me coutinho would be the perfect 10 you are talking about. Neither gundogan nor pogba are this kind of player. Iniesta is the only barca player atm who can play this style. IMO Its easier to adapt a player like coutinho to play more as a CM than it is to teach a CM to create like a CAM.

 

[jonxxxj]

How does Turan get into this equation?

 

[DonAK]

Perfect. For me coutinho would be the perfect 10 you are talking about. Neither gundogan nor pogba are this kind of player. Iniesta is the only barca player atm who can play this style. IMO Its easier to adapt a player like coutinho to play more as a CM than it is to teach a CM to create like a CAM.

Why try to adapt Coutinho into a role when we can buy players who are better than him and already can play that role?

 

[Bran the Greenseer]

If we really want a Xavi type player we'd buy Gundogan.