7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

[gasgas]

Vision, ball retention, hustle, short & long passes, energy, pressing, creativity, flair, etc. You can do your own research if you want, but i doubt you will. So lets just agree that neither of us want Coutinho at Barca - you, for some insane notion that Coutinho has to be better than Iniesta for Barca to require his services, and me, because I don't want him leaving the PL.

at
Ball retention

He lacks defensive quality, he can not control a midfield, he is NOT good at ball retention, he doesn't offer stability in midfield, long passes i'm skeptical,

The rest of the features you mentioned are fitting of a winger/CAM/10

The reason I don't want him here is because he doesn't fit the profile.
If we needed a CAM/winger we would get him but wedon't
We already have CAM/winger players who time and time again have shown that a CAM/winger can not fit to play as Barca CM

You are in the same boat as some guys a year ago who were saying how Hazard can play as a CM.
Excellent player, wrong profile.

He doesn't have to be the same level as Iniesta.
He has to fit profile so that we aren't fitting a rectangle inside a square. We need a perfect fit

Some of such players include Gundogan, Verratti, pre-Man Utd Pogba, Thiago, Dahoud etc
These fit the profile of a Barca CM


Coutinho, Hazard, mkhitaryan, James rodriguez, Ozil, gotze, pepe, sergio ramos, halilovic, these don't fit the profile of a Barca CM

 

[gasgas]

We WILL get Coutinho whether you like it or not =)

It's always good to hear from a member of the board.
One question though, "what were you guys thinking, sending Munir away and signing Paco for 30 M.
You did poorly there

 

[BBZ8800]

Not even 3-4 Months have passed and we are already linked with new Cms.
As expected, a classical Barca (since Denis and Gomes are very questionable in terms of being future starters).

I personally think that we will buy 2-3 new Coutinhos in the next 2-3 summers. That's how we operate since always.

About people who say that he is not a Cm, well, Barca more or less always played with Cam and Cm combo, where one guy is much more offensive, and able to create, dribble and score.
For younger fans, who followed Barca only in Pep's Xavi-Iniesta era, it may seem strange since Iniesta was never that good finisher.
But before Xavi-Iniesta era, Coutinho would have been more or less classical Barca's Amc signing.

My expectations were that we will try to sign Ozil in the next summer (he is a textbook example of our Amc over the past), and Coutinho was my 2nd pick.

If we buy new guys, it doesn't mean that Denis, Gomes or Alena are dead and finished.
But when we signed Denis and Gomes, some people here said that we are "set" now with our midfield for 10 years and similar.
Again, we are not buying "future starters", we are buying attempts/possibilities.
We (Barca) will never just buy 1 player and put all our faith in him and his development.
We were always buying 3-4-5 players for the same position, and then the one who performs the best=will stay for a few years, and the 2nd one will stay as a backup. Other 3 guys will be shipped away soon.

People here on forum (imo) are too emotional and are creating too strong bonds with players (xx player: we need to give him more chances, we need to try him for 2-3 years to see how he will develop etc). We need to give chances to players, but again, we are not a club who has time to develop players.
We can work only:
1. when we buy proven players who will perform right away
2. or when we buy youngsters, who will start to play awesome very soon

When we buy either oldies or youngsters who perform meh or poor, there is no much time for waiting them (2 poor/meh seasons are usually a game over for a player at Barca's shirt, except for a highly talented La Masia potentials), we will just turn to new signings.

If we are really already interested in Coutinho, imo, it signals that the board is not too happy with Denis, Gomes, Arda and unless they improve a lot, we will just go on with a new huge shopping spree very soon.

Again, my estimation: even if Denis and Gomes will start to play insanely well, we will buy at least 1 player of Coutinho's level in the next 2 summers since Iniesta is close to a retirement, and something strange is happening with Rakitic's stamina and form in 2016.
If Denis and Gomes will play meh, I can see us easily buying Coutinho+at least one 30-50M Cm in the next 2 summers plus promoting Alena.

And then the same thing over and over again until we find a perfect fit who can play for 5+ years here.
Again, it may seem strange to younger fans, who watched Xavi+Iniesta and whom we had for 12-15 years in our team.
But the thing is that Xavi-Iniesta were an anomaly, and not a rule how our club usually work.
We were never blessed with that good La Masia players and then it was easy to keep them for 10 years here, since they knew the system and didn't want to leave the club.

With players who are not from La Masia:
1. we always need 2-3-4 "attempts" before we find a good fit
2. plus, players stay here much shorter, they lose motivation and passion faster and they usually want to change clubs/countries more often to try different things

Again, imo, our fans will be much less angry and disappointed if they stop looking at all of our signings as our future "players for the next 10 years".
This is why I love to call majority of our signings just "attempts" (to get a good fit and a player who will possibly stay here for longer than 2 years) and nothing more.

 

[gasgas]

Not even 3-4 Months have passed and we are already linked with new Cms.
As expected, a classical Barca (since Denis and Gomes are very questionable in terms of being future starters).

I personally think that we will buy 2-3 new Coutinhos in the next 2-3 summers. That's how we operate since always.

About people who say that he is not a Cm, well, Barca more or less always played with Cam and Cm combo, where one guy is much more offensive, and able to create, dribble and score.
For younger fans, who followed Barca only in Pep's Xavi-Iniesta era, it may seem strange since Iniesta was never that good finisher.
But before Xavi-Iniesta era, Coutinho would have been more or less classical Barca's Amc signing.

My expectations were that we will try to sign Ozil in the next summer (he is a textbook example of our Amc over the past), and Coutinho was my 2nd pick.

If we buy new guys, it doesn't mean that Denis, Gomes or Alena are dead and finished.
But when we signed Denis and Gomes, some people here said that we are "set" now with our midfield for 10 years and similar.
Again, we are not buying "future starters", we are buying attempts/possibilities.
We (Barca) will never just buy 1 player and put all our faith in him and his development.
We were always buying 3-4-5 players for the same position, and then the one who performs the best=will stay for a few years, and the 2nd one will stay as a backup. Other 3 guys will be shipped away soon.

People here on forum (imo) are too emotional and are creating too strong bonds with players (xx player: we need to give him more chances, we need to try him for 2-3 years to see how he will develop etc). We need to give chances to players, but again, we are not a club who has time to develop players.
We can work only:
1. when we buy proven players who will perform right away
2. or when we buy youngsters, who will start to play awesome very soon

When we buy either oldies or youngsters who perform meh or poor, there is no much time for waiting them (2 poor/meh seasons are usually a game over for a player at Barca's shirt, except for a highly talented La Masia potentials), we will just turn to new signings.

If we are really already interested in Coutinho, imo, it signals that the board is not too happy with Denis, Gomes, Arda and unless they improve a lot, we will just go on with a new huge shopping spree very soon.

Again, my estimation: even if Denis and Gomes will start to play insanely well, we will buy at least 1 player of Coutinho's level in the next 2 summers since Iniesta is close to a retirement, and something strange is happening with Rakitic's stamina and form in 2016.
If Denis and Gomes will play meh, I can see us easily buying Coutinho+at least one 30-50M Cm in the next 2 summers plus promoting Alena.

And then the same thing over and over again until we find a perfect fit who can play for 5+ years here.
Again, it may seem strange to younger fans, who watched Xavi+Iniesta and whom we had for 12-15 years in our team.
But the thing is that Xavi-Iniesta were an anomaly, and not a rule how our club usually work.
We were never blessed with that good La Masia players and then it was easy to keep them for 10 years here, since they knew the system and didn't want to leave the club.

With players who are not from La Masia:
1. we always need 2-3-4 "attempts" before we find a good fit
2. plus, players stay here much shorter, they lose motivation and passion faster and they usually want to change clubs/countries more often to try different things

Again, imo, our fans will be much less angry and disappointed if they stop looking at all of our signings as our future "players for the next 10 years".
This is why I love to call majority of our signings just "attempts" (to get a good fit and a player who will possibly stay here for longer than 2 years) and nothing more.

The problem is we are deficient in Barca CM role.
We have Rafinha, Denis, Arda all CAMs but none of them can start as CM because they lack quality and don't fit

The only CM who can control a game, can dictate midfield is Iniesta. We are losing midfield battles now


I have no problem with CA

 

[Lomar1o]

It's always good to hear from a member of the board.
One question though, "what were you guys thinking, sending Munir away and signing Paco for 30 M.
You did poorly there

Not my fault, I was against it DDDDDDDDDDD

I agree on one thing though, we do need CM. but we also need Coutinho, so we'll get both, I hope

 

[Tiny Kim]

at
Ball retention

He lacks defensive quality, he can not control a midfield, he is NOT good at ball retention, he doesn't offer stability in midfield, long passes i'm skeptical,

The rest of the features you mentioned are fitting of a winger/CAM/10

He is good at ball retention and yes he is stable. But he's mostly given a job further up the field at Liverpool since they don't have someone as good making things happen in the final third. Coutinho is a forward-thinking CM. What you're looking for is something called a "defensive-minded CM" or a "deep-lying playmaker". You should look those terms up rather than just quote me and put smileys next to it as if it validates your argument.

 

[BBZ8800]

The problem is we are deficient in Barca CM role.
We have Rafinha, Denis, Arda all CAMs but none of them can start as CM because they lack quality and don't fit

The only CM who can control a game, can dictate midfield is Iniesta. We are losing midfield battles now


I have no problem with CA

Based on our history, then we will do something like this:
-- if Iniesta is retiring, and other 3 Cams are not good enough, then we will sell Arda + Denis/Rafinha, and keep only one out of Denis/Rafinha for a backup
-- and we will just buy a new expensive Cam, like Ozil or Coutinho

If a new expensive guy will be good, then we'll have Ozil or Coutinho as a starter and let's say Denis as a squad player.
If a new guy will fail, we will just again buy 1-2 new guys next summer and repeat the same scenario: keep the best guy as a starter and keep one guy for a rotation. And if a key guy will turn out to be not good enough, then the next summer the same story: buy a new guy and sell one of the current guys again.

The same as how Real is working:
2009: Kaka, Xabi Alonso
2010: Khedira, Ozil
2011: Sahin, Altintop
2012: Modric, Essien
2013: Isco, Illaramendi, Casemiro
2014: Kroos, James, Lucas Silva
2016: Kovacic

15 midfielders in a few years, without counting players from a Bteam.

Some people will probably say: but we are Barca, we are not like that. We are building our team from our La Masia.
Again, that's a myth created in the last 10 years when we were blessed with Xavi, Iniesta, Busi.
In 90s, we were buying expensive signings each summer.
In 00s also.
Then we stopped buying Cms because we had Xavi-Iniesta for 10 years.

But again, since we won't get a new Xavi or Iniesta that soon, it is quite certain that we will return to Barca's style from 90s or 00s, the same as Real's style.

That means: buy, buy, buy every summer.
Try those players. Give them 1-2 seasons.
If a player fits=awesome.
If he is meh: just buy, buy, buy again and repeat all the time until you finally find a few good players.

In short: if Denis+Gomes or one of them will step up: expect 1 new Cm soon.
If both of them will struggle to reach the highest level: expect 1-2-3 new expensive Cms almost every summer.

 

[gasgas]

Not my fault, I was against it DDDDDDDDDDD

I agree on one thing though, we do need CM. but we also need Coutinho, so we'll get both, I hope

Yeah
I wouldn't mind both
But a CM is priority.
Our midfield can't control anything

 

[gasgas]

He is good at ball retention and yes he is stable. But he's mostly given a job further up the field at Liverpool since they don't have someone as good making things happen in the final third. Coutinho is a forward-thinking CM. What you're looking for is something called a "defensive-minded CM" or a "deep-lying playmaker". You should look those terms up rather than just quote me and put smileys next to it as if it validates your argument.

A forward thinking CM is a CAM
Of which we already have 3 and all are misfits because we play 2 CMs not CAMs

 

[gasgas]

Based on our history, then we will do something like this:
-- if Iniesta is retiring, and other 3 Cams are not good enough, then we will sell Arda + Denis/Rafinha, and keep only one out of Denis/Rafinha for a backup
-- and we will just buy a new expensive Cam, like Ozil or Coutinho

If a new expensive guy will be good, then we'll have Ozil or Coutinho as a starter and let's say Denis as a squad player.
If a new guy will fail, we will just again buy 1-2 new guys next summer and repeat the same scenario: keep the best guy as a starter and keep one guy for a rotation. And if a key guy will turn out to be not good enough, then the next summer the same story: buy a new guy and sell one of the current guys again.

The same as how Real is working:
2009: Kaka, Xabi Alonso
2010: Khedira, Ozil
2011: Sahin, Altintop
2012: Modric, Essien
2013: Isco, Illaramendi, Casemiro
2014: Kroos, James, Lucas Silva
2016: Kovacic

15 midfielders in a few years, without counting players from a Bteam.

Some people will probably say: but we are Barca, we are not like that. We are building our team from our La Masia.
Again, that's a myth created in the last 10 years when we were blessed with Xavi, Iniesta, Busi.
In 90s, we were buying expensive signings each summer.
In 00s also.
Then we stopped buying Cms because we had Xavi-Iniesta for 10 years.

But again, since we won't get a new Xavi or Iniesta that soon, it is quite certain that we will return to Barca's style from 90s or 00s, the same as Real's style.

That means: buy, buy, buy every summer.
Try those players. Give them 1-2 seasons.
If a player fits=awesome.
If he is meh: just buy, buy, buy again and repeat all the time until you finally find a few good players.

In short: if Denis+Gomes or one of them will step up: expect 1 new Cm soon.
If both of them will struggle to reach the highest level: expect 1-2-3 new expensive Cms almost every summer.

I wish you had put more distinction between CMs and CAMs.
They are different

We have a deficit in CMs but plenty CAMs

Imagine
You have 3 old school puyol esque CBs
And also 1 ball playing CB who is old and close to retirement

And your system needs a ball playing CB

Do you go buy another puyol esque or a needed ball playing CB?

Same thing with CM and CAM

We have 3 CAMs
But only one ball playing, controlling CM, Iniest

 

[serghei]

I don't even consider Gomes or Arda, all 80mil of them, to even be considered AM. They don't have pace or are good finishers. Arda is a good dribbler but Gomes isn't even. Gomes seems to be smarter though and understand the role better than Arda already. The only true AM is Rafinha and Coutinho is much, much better. Smartly signing him and CM, should of been Ilkay, and wed be in amazing shape. Denis was a great buy for 3mil buy and is the only other AM/winger.

Having MSN up top means that neither of the midfielders can be too attacking. If anything, the system would work best with 1DM and two CMs that are physical and cover a lot of ground. Coutinho is too attack oriented to play at Barcelona imo, is not physical and does not have the defensive abilities of a Barcelona CM at this stage and with that attack.

I personaly like a Busi - Gomes - Rakitic midfield and it can be a good solution for the future, provided that we play them together more.

 

[BBZ8800]

Having MSN up top means that neither of the midfielders can be too attacking. If anything, the system would work best with 1DM and two CMs that are physical and cover a lot of ground. Coutinho is too attack oriented to play at Barcelona imo, is not physical and does not have the defensive abilities of a Barcelona CM at this stage and with that attack.

I personaly like a Busi - Gomes - Rakitic midfield and it can be a good solution for the future, provided that we play them together more.

I don't think that we need two Cms with MSN.

On one hand, you can never plan your long term future when you have Neymar in your team.
He could be gone in summer of 2017 or summer of 2018 easily.
So, on one hand, our MSN-pendencia system could change very soon and a different system, with a different CAM could work.

Also, about MSN and two physical Cms, I remember an interview when Laporta and Rijkaard bought Deco in a summer of 2004, Rijkaard later said: we didn't want a situation where we depend only on Ronaldinho and his playmaking abilities. He is a world class, but when he has a day off or when 2-3 opponents man-mark him, our team is in troubles since we don't have a playmaker anymore.
This why we bought Deco (who played as a Rcm/Rcam) on the opposite side of a pitch: if the opponents will use 2-3 players to mark Ronaldinho, we will have our 2nd playmaker in Deco on the opposite side of a pitch with a lot of free space to create something for Etoo+Guily/Larsson.

Anyway, I think that we could use a similar logic/idea even here.
Even though we have Messi and Neymar as 2 playmakers, when they are heavily marked, we are in troubles.
Imo, a team with 3 playmakers is again tougher to mark than a team with only 2 playmakers.
(Someone will say that we have Iniesta, but he is older and older and far from his prime).

I agree with you about defensive skills from Coutinho, but even Rafinha and Denis are poor in defense (and even a current 32 years old Iniesta isn't on the highest defending level anymore).
But again, a slightly more defensive fullback on Coutinho's side (let's say Alba), more defensive Busi and a Rcm who is a workhorse (someone like Rakitic or if Gomes will improve) and it wouldn't be that horrible.
Also, again, imagine if Neymar will leave and if we will buy a different winger, that would change a whole balance of midfield and attack and the way how our team attacks and defends.

I could be wrong, since Deco was here 10 years ago and I didn't read forums back then and maybe my memories of him are wrong, but how I remember him from Barca, he was never "that good" in defending.
He knew to cover and defend, but he was way weaker than Xavi in that area, imo.

Those were different times, but if we ruled Europe with 3 attackers and Deco, maybe we could do the same with 3 future attackers and someone like Coutinho.

 

[Vilarrubi]

Having MSN up top means that neither of the midfielders can be too attacking. If anything, the system would work best with 1DM and two CMs that are physical and cover a lot of ground. Coutinho is too attack oriented to play at Barcelona imo, is not physical and does not have the defensive abilities of a Barcelona CM at this stage and with that attack.

I personaly like a Busi - Gomes - Rakitic midfield and it can be a good solution for the future, provided that we play them together more.

I think the opposite, we should have players who can pass and find those balls forward rather than players who can defend. This is Barca, we usually have 60%+ possession in every game, defending isn't as important.

Pressing on the other hand is key to our style and Coutinho does it pretty well. Along with the fact he is one of the best players in the world right now going forward.

When he's played deep in midfield for Liverpool i've been so impressed with how he can find that deadly ball or even take on one or two players to create gaps and space, I'd most definitely have him here.

 

[Co0ter]

Having MSN up top means that neither of the midfielders can be too attacking. If anything, the system would work best with 1DM and two CMs that are physical and cover a lot of ground. Coutinho is too attack oriented to play at Barcelona imo, is not physical and does not have the defensive abilities of a Barcelona CM at this stage and with that attack.

I personaly like a Busi - Gomes - Rakitic midfield and it can be a good solution for the future, provided that we play them together more.

All players who look like lampposts when we get counter-attacked. Gomes has a lot of improving to do before he even deserves that position. He's just lucky Arda sucks there, Rafinha is left footed and the rest of the midfielders are playing even worse. Denis impressed the most, but for every good thing he does he makes 3 mistakes.

We went for quantity over quality and it's really starting to show. I'll gladly admit I was wrong about Arda being able to play Rakitic's position. He showed everything the position needed and more while at Atletico, but like he said himself- he's glad he doesn't have to run as much as he did at Atletico...which is why he appears to have not even half that warrior-fire he had while he was there. Also, he was 29 when he was able to star for us already. Go figure?

I was absolutely against Paco. I didn't understand Gomes signing at all, especially since he didn't even really stand out during the Euros...but at least he was young. Denis for 3mil? Great deal for a squad player. Digne as a back-up LB? Good signing, and young. Umtiti? Youth where we obviously needed it. Good signing, and great price.

With Iniesta turning 32, why did we buy an old AM/LW, Arda, and a young AM, Gomes, for way too much money? Very poor signings by Lucho. We need someone who had the quality to be a starter, and they were both neither.

At least Coutinho is actually creative, can dribble and finish/score. MSN wouldn't have to do EVERYTHING themselves. Not to mention he works his ass off every game and has pace. Iniesta was never a great defender either but he worked his ass off under Lucho and it worked out because of that.

I really don't see any of the new players in our midfield as a solution, none of them really compliment each other except Iniesta and Rakitic....and neither of them solve the problem of MSN being the ONLY outlet for creating. We also need to realize that without players who can control the midfield, Busquets is nothing but a liability.

 

[gasgas]

All players who look like lampposts when we get counter-attacked. Gomes has a lot of improving to do before he even deserves that position. He's just lucky Arda sucks there, Rafinha is left footed and the rest of the midfielders are playing even worse. Denis impressed the most, but for every good thing he does he makes 3 mistakes.

We went for quantity over quality and it's really starting to show. I'll gladly admit I was wrong about Arda being able to play Rakitic's position. He showed everything the position needed and more while at Atletico, but like he said himself- he's glad he doesn't have to run as much as he did at Atletico...which is why he appears to have not even half that warrior-fire he had while he was there. Also, he was 29 when he was able to star for us already. Go figure?

I was absolutely against Paco. I didn't understand Gomes signing at all, especially since he didn't even really stand out during the Euros...but at least he was young. Denis for 3mil? Great deal for a squad player. Digne as a back-up LB? Good signing, and young. Umtiti? Youth where we obviously needed it. Good signing, and great price.

With Iniesta turning 32, why did we buy an old AM/LW, Arda, and a young AM, Gomes, for way too much money? Very poor signings by Lucho. We need someone who had the quality to be a starter, and they were both neither.

At least Coutinho is actually creative, can dribble and finish/score. MSN wouldn't have to do EVERYTHING themselves. Not to mention he works his ass off every game and has pace. Iniesta was never a great defender either but he worked his ass off under Lucho and it worked out because of that.

I really don't see any of the new players in our midfield as a solution, none of them really compliment each other except Iniesta and Rakitic....and neither of them solve the problem of MSN being the ONLY outlet for creating. We also need to realize that without players who can control the midfield, Busquets is nothing but a liability.

So you think Coutinho can control the midfield?