8 - Pedri

[fergus90]

How do the people claiming he's a top midfielder in Europe reconcile the two notions that

1) our midfield consists of two of the best midfielders in Europe (Frenkie and Pedri) + Busquets who also played for Spain NT, which in Pedri's case is an unquestionable stamp of a world class player for some people right now.
2) our midfield was pretty underwhelming during the last season and was dominated repeatedly by lower teams

There is some serious cognitive dissonance in work there.

Either our players are great and our midfield is great. Or our players are mediocre and our midfield is mediocre. The margin accounted for by 'balance' in the setup is only so big.

I see Pedri as an incredible talent rather than "world class". World class to me denotes that the player in question either gets in the World XI or every club would start him and pretty much that his game will not improve from this point.

I do agree that against every top team last season our midfield was easily snuffed out. In the Barca vs PSG game alone, Verratti looked head and shoulders above the entire midfield. However it was only their first season together as a midfield trio, and if I'm honest I'm not sure many people see FDJ-Busquets-Pedri as a viable midfield solution for the next few years anyway. Think it was just the best we can muster in our current situation.

For Spain, Pedri looked very comfortable because the trio of him-Busi-Koke worked very well and he had two experienced players next to him. At Barca, FDJ is still learning his craft a bit too.

 

[BusiTheKing]

I agree that Pedri should be seen as a great talent, but as an option for the starting eleven he should be recognized as a player with significant deficiencies, mainly his inability to assert himself, the way he plays around the game instead of shaping in.

 

[mc_lovin]

I agree that Pedri should be seen as a great talent, but as an option for the starting eleven he should be recognized as a player with significant deficiencies, mainly his inability to assert himself, the way he plays around the game instead of shaping in.

Not sure about that. We use him as a water carrier for now, mainly playing between the lines. And that's what we need right now (with Messi, Busquets...). We don't play him like Xavi for example, who was demanding most of the passes (hence asserting himself? If that's what you mean).

 

[BusiTheKing]

I mean the way in which his decision making is passive, reactive. He gets the ball and picks the best option out of what is possible for him to do. He doesn't do much to change what is possible. He's sort of submissive to the flow of the game in that way.

If we face an opponent that is well organized, only allowing our midfield to play it sideways, then Pedri will just play it sideways. If a gap opens up between the lines, then he'll go for it. But as long as there's no gap, he'll keep passing sideways. That is how you take responsibility for your own actions. What you want in that situation is a player that takes responsibility for the end result and thus tries actively to break down their defensive organizaiton.

So what does a midfielder need to do in that situation? The answer is something else, something more. Modern football games are decided in isolated, discrete situations in which a team does what the opponent isn't prepared for. Solid, reliable, smart passing for 90 mins gets you to the quater-finals of the CL and no further.

Another way to put it is this. Right now, he's a player that is great at exploiting the opponents weaknesses. But at some point we're going to play teams with no weaknesses.

 

[vegitot]

Same Verrati with Ballon Dor contender Jorginho were dominated by Pedri, Busquest and Koke. It is true that Pedri played better at Euro than at Barca, but his role also was different plus he had Koke on his side. Frankie is not Koke and simply is not as good as him when you try to form a 3 men midfield with Pedri and Busquest.

 

[putogusiluz8]

You're asking him to be a difference maker, someone who takes risks and forces a mistake out of the opposition or creates something out of nothing, like Iniesta for example. The thing is his forte is his reliability on the ball and coolness and composure and he doesn't have the ability yet to be that type of player and if he tried it he would jeopardize everything that makes him good right now.

I certainly agree doing more of what you're saying it's what's needed for him to reach the next level, but he's friggin 18 years old, this is something which will come about as he ages and evolves as a player. Don't ask too much of the kid, remember last year he was old enough to be in high school.

 

[BusiTheKing]

You're asking him to be a difference maker, someone who takes risks and forces a mistake out of the opposition or creates something out of nothing, like Iniesta for example. The thing is his forte is his reliability on the ball and coolness and composure and he doesn't have the ability yet to be that type of player and if he tried it he would jeopardize everything that makes him good right now.

I certainly agree doing more of what you're saying it's what's needed for him to reach the next level, but he's friggin 18 years old, this is something which will come about as he ages and evolves as a player. Don't ask too much of the kid, remember last year he was old enough to be in high school.

When you mention his age, you're switching the discussion to a debate about his talent and potential. What I'm trying to discuss is his value as a starter, because as of right now he occupies a position in our starting eleven. Those are two different discussions. I agree that he's a great talent. I'm not so sure he should be an undisputed starter for us.

 

[Bobo32]

I mostly agree with BusiTheKing in what he argues here, he seems to see the same player that I do.

How do the people claiming he's a top midfielder in Europe reconcile the two notions that

1) our midfield consists of two of the best midfielders in Europe (Frenkie and Pedri) + Busquets who also played for Spain NT, which in Pedri's case is an unquestionable stamp of a world class player for some people right now.
2) our midfield was pretty underwhelming during the last season and was dominated repeatedly by lower teams

There is some serious cognitive dissonance in work there.

Either our players are great and our midfield is great. Or our players are mediocre and our midfield is mediocre. The margin accounted for by 'balance' in the setup is only so big.

"Top midfielder" should be defined then. Was Xavi not a top midfielder in 2007?
I think being in the Euros best 11 is enough to be considered a top midfielder, but all top midfielders do not fit in Barcelona, or can make Koemans Barcelona play great.
Pedri and Frenkie both lack some of the qualities needed to dominate the way Barcelona should. Even after Lucho, Valverde and now Koeman, the squad is still built partly in a way that demands more from Barcelona midfielders than elsewhere, and more than what they can offer - in vision, positioning, decisions etc. Both are a bit passive as you write, and need more space and time to be creative. One of them can work, but both at the same time is not good enough - even though I really like both players and want both on the pitch.

 

[vegitot]

When you mention his age, you're switching the discussion to a debate about his talent and potential. What I'm trying to discuss is his value as a starter, because as of right now he occupies a position in our starting eleven. Those are two different discussions. I agree that he's a great talent. I'm not so sure he should be an undisputed starter for us.

Then your bar is just too high for any player. Probably prime Iniesta or Xavi is undisputed starter for Barca, anyone below is not. Cmon, you can not ask him or any current Barca midfielder play that good. Anyway, there is no one better than him in Barca at this moment. He is also starter for Spain (ahead of Thiago...) and is outstanding for them.
The only question is how far he will go, not something like is he Barca starter or is he good enough for Barca.

 

[BusiTheKing]

Then your bar is just too high for any player. Probably prime Iniesta or Xavi is undisputed starter for Barca, anyone below is not. Cmon, you can not ask him or any current Barca midfielder play that good. Anyway, there is no one better than him in Barca at this moment. He is also starter for Spain (ahead of Thiago...) and is outstanding for them.
The only question is how far he will go, not something like is he Barca starter or is he good enough for Barca.

Well, we'll see. For now, I would argue that the Euros (or all national team football) places a premium on players of Pedri's type who can recycle possession, exploit weaknesses and keep a cool head in an otherwise more emotional, dramatically urgent game. I'm telling you now that these things won't matter as much in La Liga where it's much more of a tactically rigid, status quo-based game.

You're saying that Pedri is at the level just below prime Iniesta and Xavi, which I think is comically wrong. But now we're back to the 'he's very good', 'no he's not that good' style of discussion and I'll go no further down that road.

 

[vegitot]

Well, we'll see. For now, I would argue that the Euros (or all national team football) places a premium on players of Pedri's type who can recycle possession, exploit weaknesses and keep a cool head in an otherwise more emotional, dramatically urgent game. I'm telling you now that these things won't matter as much in La Liga where it's much more of a tactically rigid, status quo-based game.

You're saying that Pedri is at the level just below prime Iniesta and Xavi, which I think is comically wrong. But now we're back to the 'he's very good', 'no he's not that good' style of discussion and I'll go no further down that road.

Never said Pedri is just below prime Iniesta or Xavi. Just said your bar is too high for anyone.
Pedri is undisputed starter.

 

[BusiTheKing]

Never said Pedri is just below prime Iniesta or Xavi. Just said your bar is too high for anyone.
Pedri is undisputed starter.

I may have misunderstood you then. I thought that what you meant here:

Then your bar is just too high for any player. Probably prime Iniesta or Xavi is undisputed starter for Barca, anyone below is not. Cmon, you can not ask him or any current Barca midfielder play that good

is that if Pedri couldn't be considered an undisputed starter, that would mean that no-one but prime Xavi and Iniesta could be. Which would put Pedri just below them in your estimation.

 

[vegitot]

I may have misunderstood you then. I thought that what you meant here:



is that if Pedri couldn't be considered an undisputed starter, that would mean that no-one but prime Xavi and Iniesta could be. Which would put Pedri just below them in your estimation.

Well said. If you compare to Xavi Iniesta time then Pedri is not a starter. But we are talking about current Barca, no one is better than him now. Busquest, Pedri, De Jong are current default midfielder though that trio is not really good.

 

[MagIX]

Yeah I still think so, but Puig played less than 600mins last season, spread out as you know. When he plays 600 or even 300 minutes in a row, he will maybe make me change my mind.

Maybe it's no accident or a wrong valuation or misunderstanding or incompetence of the coach or whatever, but there is a reason why Puig has played so little with 22 y.o. ....
And most likely (without having to be a genius to figure it out) there is also a reason why Pedri is a starter for Bercelona and NT with 18...

 

[malvolio]

happens to me all the time in FM. the overplaying of wonderkids that is...