khaled_a_d
Senior Member
You sure he is the one with the strange opinion here?
Alen Halilović
- Thread starter FCBarca
- Start date
You sure he is the one with the strange opinion here?
Blaugrana Bull
HiiiPoWeR
Impossible to have a discussion about young players with BBZ. Too much bias.
Not saying he is always wrong though.
Not saying he is always wrong though.
I realize that now.
I suppose that would be a justifiable stance if i said "OMG Halilomessi next messi guaranteed starter next season". All i'm saying is Alen has talent and can show his talent against quality opposition, idc if it was a friendly messi,aguero,di maria, zabaleta, romero, mashcerano etc were all playing.
Gnidrologist
Senior Member
No, they played pretty much at all cylinders. If you watched all their matches at WC and this, you'd agree. Tough defending and somewhat clueless attacking that depends on Messi 100%.
Anyhow, on Halilovic. Unlike you say, he is certainly above average. The best move in that game was that one counter attack, where he got past several defenders and made a good pass into the middle. What i agree with is that he seems to have bad off-the-ball movement, which is why he gets involved in action way too little. Being too eager to dribble and bad decision making is normal at this age. He is very similar to Delofeou in this respect and the later has improved quite a bit in those areas, if you watch him play for Sevilla this season.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Yes. Younger players usually improve over time, if they are willing to listen and learn.
But only to some extent.
For example, if we could add numbers like in manager games into this, imagine if a player 1 (aged 18) has a vision and off the ball movement something like Xavi.
And now, let's say that he has natural talent in off the ball movement and in involvement in every defensive and offensive action, is naturally at skill 90 out of 100.
Now, that guy aged 18, with skill 90, will over time (with help of coaches) get to level 99 or 100, in that skill.
But if a guy naturally has a skill involvement let's say 40 or 50 out 100, then no matter how hard he will try, learn and listen, he will never get past, let's say, roughly, skill 70 or 80/100.
So, yes, I agree that younger players do make some mistakes and that they will improve.
But again, we are Barca, and all of our players usually need level 90/100 in basically all skills needed for his position.
So, roughly, imo, Halilovic has a few huge flaws, that are just too huge. And even if he will improve them a lot in a natural way, I think that even then his level in some areas won't be good enough for Barca's level.
It is hard to explain player's skills in numbers, but I hope you will get my point.
Deulo also improved. But he is awesome in some areas, while he is very poor in some other areas.
And again, unfortunately, for Barca's level you need everything.
(Someone will probably reply: "But even Messi don't defend too much."
True. But if you are the best player in the world in one area, then you can get away without defending or some other things.
But if you are, roughly, 30th or 50th best player in the world on your position, like Deulo or Halil, then you can't get away with poor defending or poor involvement in a build-up play. If you aren't the best in something, you have to be a good allrounder in all other parts of the game.
They aren't currently, and I don't believe that they can improve in some critical areas enough to be Barca's first team level.)
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Saviola, Quaresma and Simao Sabrosa were the biggest prospects who failed. With Bojan of course.
These 3 guys were almost the best young players in the world when we bought them aged 18-19.
They all failed.
Deulo and Halil are, for example, talented guys.
But these guys above were hyped to be the new Maradona (Saviola) and 2 Figos (Quaresma and Simao).
Back then we didn't have Messi, so all players were either a new Maradona, Figo or Zidane usually.
In terms of talent and hype, Deulo and Halil are nothing compared with those guys.
Again, I wish the best for our youngsters, but you will also believe in a hype less and less, with a longer experience as a Barca fan.
Also, sorry guys if I am sometimes annoying and too pessimistic about our youngsters.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
I've been Barca fan for around 15 years,I understand your point
But_and I hate to discuss a forum member and sorry for that _ the thing is you somewhat ceriated your own myth about the players who made it ,you was a big fan of young Xavi but ppl never thought he was gonna be a legend and he wasn't as special as you are making him when he was young ,same with Iniesta ,he was also really good but not a young superstar at the age of 21 ,Messi was also gr8 when he was young but he was very selfish player initially ,people thought that those who are hyping him as next Maradona are crazy
You forget about the flaws those who made it ,that makes you thinking any young need to be both special and perfect to make ,that is wrong ,I mean really really wrong ,many young players had flaws and looked like potential busts and kept developing and became superstars,every legend was doubted and had many flaws .no one is born gr8 and players had to earn their legacy with hard work
And hey,Even Michael Jordan was drafted after Sam Bowie
BBZ8800
Senior Member
We are fans from the similar era I guess, mate.
Anyway, who are the players whom Barca produced in the last 15 years who were good enough for Barca?
1. Xavi
2. Iniesta
3. Puyol
4. Valdes
5. Messi
6. Busquets
7. Pedro
8. Thiago
9. Oleguer
I hope I haven't forgot anyone.
-- now, Messi is Messi, no need to compare anyone with him (even though I don't agree with these posts how he was selfish. Yes he was slightly selfish, but his skills were out of this world.)
-- Xavi, he is extremely intelligent player. Maybe the most intelligent Mc ever
-- plus, he was always a humble guy and a good professional
-- Iniesta, very similar
-- intelligent, humble and a good professional
-- Puyol? He is a braveheart, the captain, one of the kind
-- plays with his heart every match and an awesome example and professional
-- VV? He is a Gk, so it is harder to compare him with other guys
-- Pedro and Oleguer, they were outsiders. They didn't have that much talent, but became first team players
-- Busi and Thiago, more talented guys
-- Thiago was basically the only player out of these 9 guys who slightly resembles to Deulo or Halil
-- very talented, but slightly problematic in some tactical areas in the beginnings
-- plus, off the field he wanted to play more, wanted another team, so his situation wasn't the same as Xavi's or Iniesta's
-- he was somewhat problematic in more areas
-- but look at this again:
-- Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Pedro, Oldeguer
= more or less humble guys, great professionals
-- Messi is Messi, VV is a GK
Now, imo, Deulo and Halilovic have a talent, but they are not:
1. as intelligent (on the field) as Xavi, Iniesta or Busi
2. they aren't as good professionals as Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Oleguer, Pedro etc (Deulo has some Diva issues, and trust me, Halil acted like a little Diva and a like a spoilt kid, since always in Croatia)
3. in general I don't think that they are humble guys as Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol etc (even though this one isn't the most important thing in the world)
I don't know, for now, only Samper somehow reminds me of Xavi and Iniesta, with his intelligence, professionalism, and he also looks like a humble homegrown guy
Deulo and Halil reminds me of Quaresma, and of all worst sides of C. Ronaldo (but with much weaker skills than him)
I don't know, maybe I am analyzing too much those "secondary" things like professionalism, intelligence and humbleness, but I think that you need them all, on top of a huge talent, of course.
To became a Barca's level, you need much more things than a raw talent.
And again, Deulo and Halil currently lack in a lot of tactical things. Plus, I am not too sure about these secondary things which I mentioned above.
(In shorter, you need:
1. a lot of talent.
2. If you have it, you need a lot of other off-field things too.
3. Also, you have to grow tactically very fast and work on your tactical flaws.)
I would put my money on Samper, and not on Deulo and Halil :/
(They have a point no1, but somehow they lack in points 2 and 3)
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iniesta123
New member
can't agree at all
1st of all, I see you don't like this kid at all even as a Croat and I don't know why. This surely isn't about kid's talent at all. I have no idea how he was doing in Croatia, but I don't have to see full match of some youngster to decide whether he is talented or not. Talents are like that, they are INCONSISTENT. 2nd of all,messi's influence and halilovic's can't be comparable since messi was in barcelona since 12 and knew their philosophy. How Messi learned to play and dribble like that? Simply because he could, staff knew he could, and they let him to do it whenever he wants to (knowing he'll learn from mistakes eventually). I see the same things in Halilovic. We can argue also that Messi was midfielder brought up in striker position later on in his career (on senior level under pep to be exact) and started to score that crazy amount of goals and assists, while Halilovic is now in deeper position simply because he isn't strong enough to deal with defenders in final 3rd like messi could at age of 19. We can also say that Halilovic was great every time he was playing with adults simply because he could organise attack 10 times better than those kids from B team who have an idea of simply proving themselves. What I don't like, and I'm sure is influencing on Halilovic's games in B team squad (therefore a bit his development), is the fact he'll be with A team next year no matter what and that's place where he wants to prove himself even more. Furthermore, he's got everything to be top top player (talent wise), and everything else will be thought as the time passes by on senior level with senior players. Halilovic, just like Messi did, needs supply from other tehnically gifted players and this B team of barcelona is fully concentrated on proving themselves individually. So please, leave kid alone, enjoy his talent and watch him growing into world beater, or just continue being hater.
1st of all, I see you don't like this kid at all even as a Croat and I don't know why. This surely isn't about kid's talent at all. I have no idea how he was doing in Croatia, but I don't have to see full match of some youngster to decide whether he is talented or not. Talents are like that, they are INCONSISTENT. 2nd of all,messi's influence and halilovic's can't be comparable since messi was in barcelona since 12 and knew their philosophy. How Messi learned to play and dribble like that? Simply because he could, staff knew he could, and they let him to do it whenever he wants to (knowing he'll learn from mistakes eventually). I see the same things in Halilovic. We can argue also that Messi was midfielder brought up in striker position later on in his career (on senior level under pep to be exact) and started to score that crazy amount of goals and assists, while Halilovic is now in deeper position simply because he isn't strong enough to deal with defenders in final 3rd like messi could at age of 19. We can also say that Halilovic was great every time he was playing with adults simply because he could organise attack 10 times better than those kids from B team who have an idea of simply proving themselves. What I don't like, and I'm sure is influencing on Halilovic's games in B team squad (therefore a bit his development), is the fact he'll be with A team next year no matter what and that's place where he wants to prove himself even more. Furthermore, he's got everything to be top top player (talent wise), and everything else will be thought as the time passes by on senior level with senior players. Halilovic, just like Messi did, needs supply from other tehnically gifted players and this B team of barcelona is fully concentrated on proving themselves individually. So please, leave kid alone, enjoy his talent and watch him growing into world beater, or just continue being hater.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Iniesta: (I am from Croatia. I love Rakitic, but I just don't rate Halilovic too high)
-- in shortest:
-- he played in Dinamo as a kid, but he wasn't good enough
-- he would lose 7 out of 10 balls, but he was allowed to do anything
-- Dinamo's owner Mamic hyped him, and Mamic always gets a 20-40% of every player's transfer
-- so, Mamic pushed him in Dinamo and allowed him to do whatever he wanted, because he would earn money on him
-- the same is with NT team, Mamic is basically the owner of our Football federation, and he controls everything
-- when his player needs to be sold, he is called into NT team
-- MC Badelj was playing constantly when Mamic and Dinamo needed to sell him
-- when he was sold, he dissappeared, and then Mamic started to force Amc Sammir
-- when he was sold, now he is forcing Mc Brozovic
-- and the same story is repeating every year
So:
1. Halilovic was nothing special in Dinamo
2. he is called in NT team, only because of Mamic
3. he is avarage/poor for now in Barca B
Further, there is a huge hate towards him in Croatia.
It is hard to explain. He has talent, but he is showing extremely wrong, annoying, selfish and arrogant attitude (when he was in Croatia).
You can check on this topic, from Croatian biggest sport forum:
http://www.hrsport.net/sportnetklub/Tema.aspx?fID=1&tID=222604&page=28
-- he already had a lot of haters with the way he played in Dinamo (he was pushed by owners and allowed to do whatever he wants on the field, no matter how poor sometimes he was)
-- here, on page 28 of that forum, you can see how he celebrated a goal in U-17 NT match
-- comments about his play:
Poen: "I haven't watched him earlier, but what he showed on this youth tournament was very, very poor."
Barcelonista65: "(About his celebration): What kind of messages he needs to send, wtf? With whom is he already fighting at the age of 17, lol? Who is making his life miserable, lol? He played selfishly the whole tournament. He looks only for himself, never passes the ball. He is arrogant. He fights with referees all the time. And then he celebrates goals in this way.
In the last match, we had a counterattack 2 vs 1. He should have passed the ball to a teammate who was alone on the other side. Instead, he decided to dribble, again, and lost the ball. I turned off the Tv in that moment.
He played horribly and selfishly the whole tournament, and yet he is extremely arrogant and annoying. Someone needs to talk with this kid.
But it isn't his fault. It is mostly Mamic's fault who told him that he is the best player in the world. The kid, sadly, believes in that story."
Poen: "Now I understand why he didn't play more in Dinamo. He is so not ready for a senior level yet. He is not even anything special when he plays on a youth tournament. And then we can read stupid hyped stories how he is worth at least 20 Millions Euros, lol."
Haso12: "A horrible tournament by both Halilovic and other 3-4 hyped youngsters. For them, it would be better if they had stayed at home, than playing on this tournament."
Cholo: "The kid needs to be punched in the face, seriously. I understand that he lost his mind now because of a hype, but seriously, the kid has pushed too far with his arrogance"
Zadarski sin 1989: "Do you know how much is Halilovic worth? Lol, Mamic and his newspapers are creating hype and they are deciding his future price, lol. They will decide the price with this hype."
Xavice: "It is understandable that a 15 years old kid loses his mind when he gets the money and when models fell in love with him.
But the sad thing is that he doesn't have anyone around him who will put him back on a right way.
He has talent, but mentally he is young and a total mess."
Teklic: "I haven't seen such an arrogant behaviour in my life. What is his father doing? Does he speak with him at all? Do coaches work/talk with him about his attitude at all?"
NewFriikan: "Lol, what a celebration! They played horribly the whole tournament and after one goal they are now sending messages to haters? Lol"
Lukacrni: "Alen is today a weaker player than a year ago."
Captain Tsubasa: "He has a huge talent, but... He is not ready for a senior level yet. And on a youth level he hasn't showed anything expcept a huge arrogance and selfishness. He never passes the ball. He only passes the ball to his best friend Roguljic, and to no one else.
After his goal against Usbekistan, instead of being humble, he creates another stupidity with his celebration.
It shows that he doesn't listen when someone says something bad about his play. He thinks that he is doing everything perfectly, and he isn't willing to listen/learn/change.
If he won't change his attitude, there is no chance for him to become a good player."
Byserabya: "What a joke. Coaches are calling him into A-team, and better players are never called. Such a joke and corruption."
Lovro-Zg: "Lol, what a celebration. And that was his first goal in this Season, and it is the end of October already. Lol, what does this kid think he is?"
The Phantom: "To become a good player, you need 5% of talent and 95% of work.
This guy has only talent and nothing more."
The Phantom: "Yes, a lot of things decide whether you will succeed. Talent, work, mental strength.
But I don't think that this kid will make it."
Nustemburg: "The kid is an arrogant sh*t. Everyone around him have probably been telling him since the age of 5 that he is the best in the world, and no wonder that he ended with such an attitude."
Vatreni82: "Lol, all the papers are full of articles paid by Mamic in which he lies that big teams like Tottenham and Cska are interested in him, only to raise his price and to build even bigger hype, lol. What a mess."
Anyway, this is only from pages 28-29-30-31. And I translated only some of the posts from his "haters".
Sammir and Halilovic are two most hated Croatian players in the last few years.
Both because they were pushed in NT team for no reason, and because they were hyped by Mamic and his corrupted newspapers.
-- in shortest:
-- he played in Dinamo as a kid, but he wasn't good enough
-- he would lose 7 out of 10 balls, but he was allowed to do anything
-- Dinamo's owner Mamic hyped him, and Mamic always gets a 20-40% of every player's transfer
-- so, Mamic pushed him in Dinamo and allowed him to do whatever he wanted, because he would earn money on him
-- the same is with NT team, Mamic is basically the owner of our Football federation, and he controls everything
-- when his player needs to be sold, he is called into NT team
-- MC Badelj was playing constantly when Mamic and Dinamo needed to sell him
-- when he was sold, he dissappeared, and then Mamic started to force Amc Sammir
-- when he was sold, now he is forcing Mc Brozovic
-- and the same story is repeating every year
So:
1. Halilovic was nothing special in Dinamo
2. he is called in NT team, only because of Mamic
3. he is avarage/poor for now in Barca B
Further, there is a huge hate towards him in Croatia.
It is hard to explain. He has talent, but he is showing extremely wrong, annoying, selfish and arrogant attitude (when he was in Croatia).
You can check on this topic, from Croatian biggest sport forum:
http://www.hrsport.net/sportnetklub/Tema.aspx?fID=1&tID=222604&page=28
-- he already had a lot of haters with the way he played in Dinamo (he was pushed by owners and allowed to do whatever he wants on the field, no matter how poor sometimes he was)
-- here, on page 28 of that forum, you can see how he celebrated a goal in U-17 NT match
-- comments about his play:
Poen: "I haven't watched him earlier, but what he showed on this youth tournament was very, very poor."
Barcelonista65: "(About his celebration): What kind of messages he needs to send, wtf? With whom is he already fighting at the age of 17, lol? Who is making his life miserable, lol? He played selfishly the whole tournament. He looks only for himself, never passes the ball. He is arrogant. He fights with referees all the time. And then he celebrates goals in this way.
In the last match, we had a counterattack 2 vs 1. He should have passed the ball to a teammate who was alone on the other side. Instead, he decided to dribble, again, and lost the ball. I turned off the Tv in that moment.
He played horribly and selfishly the whole tournament, and yet he is extremely arrogant and annoying. Someone needs to talk with this kid.
But it isn't his fault. It is mostly Mamic's fault who told him that he is the best player in the world. The kid, sadly, believes in that story."
Poen: "Now I understand why he didn't play more in Dinamo. He is so not ready for a senior level yet. He is not even anything special when he plays on a youth tournament. And then we can read stupid hyped stories how he is worth at least 20 Millions Euros, lol."
Haso12: "A horrible tournament by both Halilovic and other 3-4 hyped youngsters. For them, it would be better if they had stayed at home, than playing on this tournament."
Cholo: "The kid needs to be punched in the face, seriously. I understand that he lost his mind now because of a hype, but seriously, the kid has pushed too far with his arrogance"
Zadarski sin 1989: "Do you know how much is Halilovic worth? Lol, Mamic and his newspapers are creating hype and they are deciding his future price, lol. They will decide the price with this hype."
Xavice: "It is understandable that a 15 years old kid loses his mind when he gets the money and when models fell in love with him.
But the sad thing is that he doesn't have anyone around him who will put him back on a right way.
He has talent, but mentally he is young and a total mess."
Teklic: "I haven't seen such an arrogant behaviour in my life. What is his father doing? Does he speak with him at all? Do coaches work/talk with him about his attitude at all?"
NewFriikan: "Lol, what a celebration! They played horribly the whole tournament and after one goal they are now sending messages to haters? Lol"
Lukacrni: "Alen is today a weaker player than a year ago."
Captain Tsubasa: "He has a huge talent, but... He is not ready for a senior level yet. And on a youth level he hasn't showed anything expcept a huge arrogance and selfishness. He never passes the ball. He only passes the ball to his best friend Roguljic, and to no one else.
After his goal against Usbekistan, instead of being humble, he creates another stupidity with his celebration.
It shows that he doesn't listen when someone says something bad about his play. He thinks that he is doing everything perfectly, and he isn't willing to listen/learn/change.
If he won't change his attitude, there is no chance for him to become a good player."
Byserabya: "What a joke. Coaches are calling him into A-team, and better players are never called. Such a joke and corruption."
Lovro-Zg: "Lol, what a celebration. And that was his first goal in this Season, and it is the end of October already. Lol, what does this kid think he is?"
The Phantom: "To become a good player, you need 5% of talent and 95% of work.
This guy has only talent and nothing more."
The Phantom: "Yes, a lot of things decide whether you will succeed. Talent, work, mental strength.
But I don't think that this kid will make it."
Nustemburg: "The kid is an arrogant sh*t. Everyone around him have probably been telling him since the age of 5 that he is the best in the world, and no wonder that he ended with such an attitude."
Vatreni82: "Lol, all the papers are full of articles paid by Mamic in which he lies that big teams like Tottenham and Cska are interested in him, only to raise his price and to build even bigger hype, lol. What a mess."
Anyway, this is only from pages 28-29-30-31. And I translated only some of the posts from his "haters".
Sammir and Halilovic are two most hated Croatian players in the last few years.
Both because they were pushed in NT team for no reason, and because they were hyped by Mamic and his corrupted newspapers.
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Gaudi
Senior Member
@BBZ8800
I have to disagree here with you. I'm also from Croatia and while I agree that Alen behavior is questionable (even though nothing comfirmed) I think he is Extra talent. Actually I rate him more talented than Modrić for example.
Of course this doesn't mean he'll succeed, I agree with your other requirements for Barca players, but I trully belive he is extremly talented from the first moment I saw him touch the ball.
I have to disagree here with you. I'm also from Croatia and while I agree that Alen behavior is questionable (even though nothing comfirmed) I think he is Extra talent. Actually I rate him more talented than Modrić for example.
Of course this doesn't mean he'll succeed, I agree with your other requirements for Barca players, but I trully belive he is extremly talented from the first moment I saw him touch the ball.
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