Andrés Iniesta

[jiopi]

Here's a neat idea, watch a match (attentively) and try to develop and express your own conception of what's going on which will of course be based on what you observe during the match. Much better than looking at stats and saying something that seems consistent with them. You literally have to have never paid attention to Iniesta for so much as two successive matches if you really believe that he's ordinary in terms of positioning and his defensive duties, that's just absolute madness.

I've an opinion, based on every Barca match the past 4-5 years, and that is backed up by stats. Much better opinion than looking 9 second clip from youtube and making a revelation based on it, I think.

 

[DonAndres]

Here's a neat idea, watch a match (attentively) and try to develop and express your own conception of what's going on which will of course be based on what you observe during the match. Much better than looking at stats and saying something that seems consistent with them. You literally have to have never paid attention to Iniesta for so much as two successive matches if you really believe that he's ordinary in terms of positioning and his defensive duties, that's just absolute madness.

Go a little easy. It's not absolute MADNESS that he doesn't notice Iniesta's defensive qualities. I mean it's not what initially comes to mind when you think of Iniesta, but something you'd learn through careful observation. Not noticing Iniesta's passing or dribbling skills would be madness, ignoring something that's blatantly obvious. But you can't be that harsh on someone when they don't notice something that is often overlooked.

 

[Ursegor]

Interceptions, tackles and so on are meaningless in quantifying defensive strength. Being at the right place at the right time to block a passing lane (unquantifiable in numbers) > making a last ditch tackle after being out of position in the first place. Iniesta positions himself incredibly well to collect loose balls, second balls, block passing lanes and then start counterattacks. The difference between Iniesta's defensive work and the current Xavi's is so obvious for example.

 

[footyfan]

Here's a neat idea, watch a match (attentively) and try to develop and express your own conception of what's going on which will of course be based on what you observe during the match. Much better than looking at stats and saying something that seems consistent with them. You literally have to have never paid attention to Iniesta for so much as two successive matches if you really believe that he's ordinary in terms of positioning and his defensive duties, that's just absolute madness.

Ridiculous post. You're arrogantly assuming that Person A only forms opinions based on stats (when in fact it could quite possibly be the other way around - stats are simply evidence to provide evidence for an opinion). While Person B (such as yourself) remember every moment from every game and has only his words and possibly biased memory to support his opinion.
You may very well be right wrt Iniesta - I think you are - Iniesta is definitely not ordinary defensively but he's not great either. Your condescending tone, on the other hand, is just cringe-worthy

 

[jiopi]

Yeah, Iniesta not only ghosts past people, he also ghosts past statistics. Only he positions himself beyond stats on the field, nobody else can do that.

 

[footyfan]

Interceptions, tackles and so on are meaningless in quantifying defensive strength. Being at the right place at the right time to block a passing lane (unquantifiable in numbers) > making a last ditch tackle after being out of position in the first place. Iniesta positions himself incredibly well to collect loose balls, second balls, block passing lanes and then start counterattacks. The difference between Iniesta's defensive work and the current Xavi's is so obvious for example.

And you will find that the stats likely reflect that (no, I havent checked any stats yet).

Edit: By "that", I mean your last sentence.
Edit 2: What you've described can just as easily be applied to Busquets, except that Busquets is much better at it than Iniesta (he's what I would call great). Again, I'm quite certain Busquets will have better defensive stats than Iniesta.

 

[DonAndres]

And you will find that the stats likely reflect that (no, I havent checked any stats yet).

That being said you wouldn't find any stats that appreciate Iniesta's positioning work which is his main defensive quality. Interception stats technically don't appreciate positioning work either because for that to be the case the opponent would've had to attempt a pass in the first place. Iniesta's very presence blocking the area could be what discouraged them from playing a pass to a teammate there.

 

[jiopi]

That being said you wouldn't find any stats that appreciate Iniesta's positioning work which is his main defensive quality. Interception stats technically don't appreciate positioning work either because for that to be the case the opponent would've had to attempt a pass in the first place. Iniesta's very presence blocking the area could be what discouraged them from playing a pass to a teammate there.

Iniesta was dribbled the same amount that Pedro and Sanchez together.

 

[footyfan]

That being said you wouldn't find any stats that appreciate Iniesta's positioning work which is his main defensive quality. Interception stats technically don't appreciate positioning work either because for that to be the case the opponent would've had to attempt a pass in the first place. Iniesta's very presence blocking the area could be what discouraged them from playing a pass to a teammate there.

You're only thinking of isolated situations that stick in your memory. Think of all the interceptions Iniesta makes because somebody else on the team applies the same defensive principles he does, only this time he's the benefactor of the stats by picking up the interceptions and tackles.

 

[DonAndres]

Iniesta was dribbled the same amount that Pedro and Sanchez together.

Once again depends on who's being marked. Alexis/Pedro most of the time only pressure fullbacks. Iniesta faces midfielders, wingers, forwards, etc. and sometimes in counterattacking situations which are difficult to defend.

 

[Ursegor]

And you will find that the stats likely reflect that (no, I havent checked any stats yet).

Edit: By "that", I mean your last sentence.
Edit 2: What you've described can just as easily be applied to Busquets, except that Busquets is much better at it than Iniesta (he's what I would call great). Again, I'm quite certain Busquets will have better defensive stats than Iniesta.

I don't care about stats. According to stats Andy Carroll was the 6th best player in the Premier League this season and Arbeloa is ranked as Real Madrid's 2nd best defensive player while Varane is ranked as Real Madrid's 18th best defensive player because he only commits 0.9 tackles per game (Arbeloa 2.9). And because jiopi has joined this thread I'm out. I already know where this discussion is going. I'm not interested.

 

[DonAndres]

You're only thinking of isolated situations that stick in your memory. Think of all the interceptions Iniesta makes because somebody else on the team applies the same defensive principles he does, only this time he's the benefactor of the stats by picking up the interceptions and tackles.

Good point there. However whatever pressure he applies is very beneficial to our often over-exposed LCB and LB. He helps maintain solidity even when there is none. Not saying he's an outstanding defender or anything like that, just that whatever contribution he provides defensively helps a lot more than people would generally acknowledge.

 

[jiopi]

Once again depends on who's being marked. Alexis/Pedro most of the time only pressure fullbacks. Iniesta faces midfielders, wingers, forwards, etc. and sometimes in counterattacking situations which are difficult to defend.

And that's why he should have more tackles and interceptions. But he hasn't got, because he isn't really that great defensively. I think he's perfectly average in that in his position. Sure some great interceptions get stuck on ones head, but thinking collectively, no not that good.

 

[jamrock]

damn lies and statistics

 

[footyfan]

I don't care about stats. According to stats Andy Carroll was the 6th best player in the Premier League this season and Arbeloa is ranked as Real Madrid's 2nd best defensive player while Varane is ranked as Real Madrid's 18th best defensive player because he only commits 0.9 tackles per game (Arbeloa 2.9). And because jiopi has joined this thread I'm out. I already know where this discussion is going. I'm not interested.

In that case, you're free to ignore the partially subjective player rating system whoscored employs.

I will say that stats without context are not very useful. However, the fact that people baulk when an argument is augmented by stats is just