Arthur

[JamDav1982]

I'd say neither were quintessential for the CL as it is being out. Actually, I think I'd rather go with Marcelo, Ronaldo and Ramos as the key payers for Madrid in CL. Madrid are not midfield centric. They go wide as soon as they can and cross because they have lethal box predators in the team. Or had.

Hard to give Modric credit for this year's CL win, considering Madrid basically had a huge amount of luck and referee errors going their way. When Juventus beats you 3-0 and at home and you need a questionable pen, or when Bayern dominates you big time as well, you can't say their midfield did their job.

Of course those three were better than him last season but talking about midfielders dont think he was better than Kroos who himself was nothing amazing for most of it.

 

[Andrew M]

Ok. Compare them on that if you want.

Physical conditioning enables a player to play to their capabilities. Iniesta has looked geriatric for 2/3 years

 

[JamDav1982]

Physical conditioning enables a player to play to their capabilities. Iniesta has looked geriatric for 2/3 years

Ok. Not relevant but compare away.

In last three years Iniesta has been MOTM in CL Final at 31 and dominated a Classico.

Modric done either at same age?

Not quite as one sided as you make out.

 

[serghei]

Of course those three were better than him last season but talking about midfielders dont think he was better than Kroos who himself was nothing amazing for most of it.

I baiscally agree. Sure, Modric and Kroos are probably the best midfielders overall in the last 3-4 years, but it's not like they are the main reason why Madrid has been winning the CL. Madrid basically sat back and played on the counter in CL all these years vs most teams. Scoring a lot on set pieces or mostly through crosses from Marcelo, Carvajal, and Kroos (I think he took a lot of set pieces for Madrid which ended up being key goals for them), or due to Ronaldo's killer instinct which punished defenders and speculated erorrs big time in these years.

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], your issue is not with Arthur, but with the foundations of possession positional play. You basically like more end to end stuff, more direct football where the ball travels at a faster pace, in a more chaotic way. Which is why you prefer stronger more physical players who can cope with that style.

 

[JamDav1982]

Back to Arthur... he has had a very strong opening two games and just needs to keep doing more of the same and taking on more and more responsibility.

Looks a great signing.

 

[xXKonan]

Back to Arthur... he has had a very strong opening two games and just needs to keep doing more of the same and taking on more and more responsibility.

Looks a great signing.

The biggest test even though it was preseason was against Roma's Midfield which was known for its physicality and he was excellent along with Bob and Rafinha IMO.

Says a lot that Roma didn't even get into the game once they were subbed off and the kids came in.

 

[serghei]

The biggest test even though it was preseason was against Roma's Midfield which was known for its physicality and he was excellent along with Bob and Rafinha IMO.

Says a lot that Roma didn't even get into the game once they were subbed off and the kids came in.

They really didn't. They had 2-3 decent attacks on Cucurella side because they saw he wasn't that good. That's about it in the first 45 mins.

 

[xXKonan]

They really didn't. They had 2-3 decent attacks on Cucurella side because they saw he wasn't that good. That's about it in the first 45 mins.

Yep, Cucu and Vidal were the weakest of the players yesterday in the first half so they targeted that left hand side due it but Lenglet did his job in covering for Cucu when needed.

The possession stats yesterday at one point in the first half was like 74% for us and 26% for Roma. You could tell yesterday how comfortable Roberto was with playing with Arthur as it allowed Roberto to be direct at times when need with his passing. If he was paired up with someone like Gomes or Denis, Doubt Roberto would have been as comfortable doing those direct passes.

 

[abiabi]

Guys lets wait for the season to actually start to judge anyone. These pre season tour games are like sparring sessions. Rafinha looked like a mix between Redondo and Gullit, just to show how innacurate these performances are.

 

[BBZ8800]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], your issue is not with Arthur, but with the foundations of possession positional play. You basically like more end to end stuff, more direct football where the ball travels at a faster pace, in a more chaotic way. Which is why you prefer stronger more physical players who can cope with that style.

Could be.
I am not a fan of Spain's slow football on a World cup, current Arthur, current Thiago with short passes which leads to nothing except playing 10s of rondos at a center of a pitch without actually getting any end product or getting closer to an opponent's goal. Sometimes it feels as possession/short 1-2 passes and rondos just for the sake of it, to keep the ball and please the fans, while in reality, nothing significant is actually happening (again, except rondos and nice first touch passes at a centre of a field).
Too often, these players are "making fools" out of opponents with beautiful passes and possession, but the score remains 0:0, without getting closer to the box and without actually even shooting at a goal.
That is Spain on a world cup, more or less.
You are playing pleasing for the eye, but absolutely nothing concrete is happening.

A question for you: can we somehow still play fast, more direct and avoid parked buses, with Busi-Arthur-Cou midfield, for example?
And if you were a coach, what would you tell to these 3 guys in order to avoid possession for the sake of possession and to get the ball faster to an opponent's third and to play 3 vs 4 counters and not 10 vs 10 against parked buses?

So, is there a way to keep Barca's DNA short, possession based technical players and still play an upgraded version of our football, something like: Barca's style, but with a faster transition and more direct football?
So, instead of 30 passes from our box to an opponent's box, to get there in let's say 10 passes (and still get there with 3-4-5 players versus their 4-5-6 defenders)?

 

[Pepe Silvia]

What's the criticism?

not a workhorse.

 

[FC433]

You do not pass only to create chances. You pass to move your teammates and organize them and also you pass to get past players with one two. You pass to change the play from one side to the other and also you pass to cool down the play or heat it.

 

[abiabi]

It is important to note that passing to the goalkeeper or 'calming' the tempo is useful when you are up 1-0 and you have more lightweight players. You don't want to make the game too crazy and up and down because it reduces your chances. Pep's City last year did this to a tee, they would be up 1-0 and only attack if the opponent went after them, they were happy to just pass it around. Its terrible to watch imo but works and tires opponent down.

If we are losing or drawing he won't do that

 

[Sekou]

It seems to me that what BBZ is envisioning is Luis Enrique 14/15 style football. It's possible with the new additions in attack (Dembele and Malcom, also Coutinho) - but I don't believe Valverde sees things the same way. As many others have mentioned: he is a "play it safe" manager.

In the end it's always down to the coach to make such a change from possesion-prioritizing football to a style that bypasses the midfield more quickly. A coach can instruct the defence and his midfielders to play more lateral passes and to focus on reaching the opposition goal area as quickly as possible, in other words: to move the ball forward quicker and thus take more risks. Class players will be able to adapt to such instructions (see Xavi in 14/15 compared to 13/14; played way more direct, forward passes, long balls).

I don't see it happening with Valverde though. The main reason - besides Valverde's probable unwilingness to play such a style of football - is Messi. He is now even more of a playmaker than he was in 14/15 (I would argue, last season, he was our only one). With him in the middle, the orchestrating of attacks will always be based on him picking up static balls from deep, trying to move the ball past a midfield line with one-twos or dribbling multiple players plus the occasional long ball to Alba.

The two options that remain are: put Messi at RW (good luck, he won't stick to that position, won't defend, also: what do with Dembele/Malcom in that case?) or have him play as a false 9/deep-lying forward in which case he would have to stay closer to goal at most times and let other players do the creating. The latter is a scenario I would like to see happen regardless of how we end up playing. His goal in the WC against Nigeria comes to mind. If Banega can function as a playmaker/chance-creator for Messi, I don't see how Coutinho f.e. can't occupy that role for Barcelona.

Since most of this is now kind of off topic, a few words on Arthur's role: I think that his biggest feat is that he adds safety and security as well as sturdiness to our midfield. As many have pointed out, having him on the feild seems to have given players like Roberto and Rafinha the confidence to take more risks on the ball and move more freely (might also be due to the fact that it's preseason and some players seem to really shine only when there's no pressure, like Denis in the preseason of 2016/17).

Now some have said that he should be doing more chance-creating and that there are many other CMs that can shield a ball, keep possession and who are good in link-up play. However, in many (big) games in the last 2-3 seasons we've been exposed as not that press-resistant. Whenever a team attacks our backline and midfield directly (Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, Roma 2nd leg) I often found myself incredibly nervous when we were on the ball in our own half with guys like Rakitic, Paulinho, old Iniesta and off-form Busquets (don't make me mention Gomes, Denis) trying to sheild the ball. I hope my pulse will be a bit lower in those situations with Arhtur in the mix of our midfield and I'm catiously optimistic about his other qualities too, excited to see what he'll bring to the table once he fully integrates into the team and develops over the next seasons.

 

[serghei]

It seems to me that what BBZ is envisioning is Luis Enrique 14/15 style football. It's possible with the new additions in attack (Dembele and Malcom, also Coutinho) - but I don't believe Valverde sees things the same way. As many others have mentioned: he is a "play it safe" manager.

In the end it's always down to the coach to make such a change from possesion-priotizing football to a style that bypasses the midfield more quickly. A coach can instruct the defence and his midfielders to play more lateral passes and to focus on reaching the opposition goal area as quickly as possible, in other words: to move the ball forward quicker and thus take more risks. Class players will be able to adapt to such instructions (see Xavi in 14/15 compared to 13/14; played way more direct, forward passes, long balls).

I don't see it happening with Valverde though. The main reason - besides Valverde's probable unwilingness to play such a style of football - is Messi. He is now even more of a playmaker than he was in 14/15 (I would argue, last season, he was our only one). With him in the middle, the orchestrating of attacks will always be based on him picking up static balls from deep, trying to move the ball past a midfield line with one-twos or dribbling multiple players plus the occasional long ball to Alba.

The two options that remain are: put Messi at RW (good luck, he won't stick to that position, won't defend, also: what do with Dembele/Malcom in that case?) or have him play as a false 9/deep-lying forward in which case he would have to stay closer to goal at most times and let other players do the creating. The latter is a scenario I would like to see happen regardless of how we end up playing. His goal in the WC against Nigeria comes to mind. If Banega can function as a playmaker/chance-creator for Messi, I don't see how Coutinho f.e. can't occupy that role for Barcelona.

Since most of this is now kind of off topic, a few words on Arthur's role: I think that his biggest feat is that he adds safety and security as well as sturdiness to our midfield. As many have pointed out, having him on the feild seems to have given players like Roberto and Rafinha the confidence to take more risks on the ball and move more freely (might also be due to the fact that it's preseason and some players seem to really shine only when there's no pressure, like Denis in the preseason of 2016/17).

Now some have said that he should be doing more chance-creating and that there are many other CMs that can shield a ball, keep possession and who are good in link-up play. However, in many (big) games in the last 2-3 seasons we've been exposed as not that press-resistant. Whenever a team attacks our backline and midfield directly (Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, Roma 2nd leg) I often found myself incredibly nervous when we were on the ball in our own half with guys like Rakitic, Paulinho, old Iniesta and off-form Busquets (don't make me mention Gomes, Denis) trying to sheild the ball. I hope my pulse will be a bit lower in those situations with Arhtur in the mix of our midfield and I'm catiously optimistic about his other qualities too, excited to see what he'll bring to the table once he fully integrates into the team and develops over the next seasons.

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