Arthur

[BBZ8800]

So what?

Some players are good in some things, other are good in other things. Rakitic has good skills at defending, but can't make one, just one turn to get away from pressure. Every time he gets the ball and has a guy close to him, is a turnover or go backwards. Arthur is a not defense machine, but he's able to break the pressure plenty of times during the game and keep Barca going forward, something that Barca clearly lacked in their last KO games in Champions League.

And I don't know how your mind works, but comparing a CM/DM with Messi/Suarez/Dembele/Coutinho is beyond ridiculous. Looks like a brazilian newspaper who wrote about Neymar when he was in Brazil "OMG, NEYMAR IS SCORING IN BRAZILIAN LEAGUE MORE THAN RONALDO AND MESSI TOGETHER".

I don't mind if Arthur plays.
But then you need 2 out of Busi, Raki, Vidal to cover the back for a front trio and Arthur.

Majority of people here watch football only in one direction: attacking phase.

But:
1. Who will win the ball when we'll lose it?
2. Who will play defense against teams who can hold the ball and get around our box?

Go to Coutinho's topic.
Majority of people would want to see a front three paired with Cou-Arthur.
And some even want to sack EV for not playing those 5 players.
An absolute madness.

Out of fun, I would like to see that lineup against Atletico at Calderon.

That lineup could work at home from time to time, like against Huesca, though.

But then, against Huesca, we will win 5:0 even with Vidal-Raki-Busi, so what exactly are we getting with Cou-Arthur duo?
Wins against teams against whom we would win either way.
And problems in defense against any top10 team.

 

[aqua2nd]

People will whine that defending is not his duty.
But as I have said, my eye test is saying that Arthur is quite meh in defending (except in applying a pressure immediately when we lose the ball).

Some interesting stats:
Last 5 matches for each of these players: Raki, Busi, Vidal, Arthur:
Tackles:
12 Vidal
11 Busquets
5 Rakitic
3 Arthur

Interceptions:
17 Rakitic
11 Busquets
9 Vidal
0 Arthur

Clearances:
4 Rakitic
3 Vidal
3 Busquets
0 Arthur

Arthur defensively last 5 matches, total:
3 tackles
0 interceptions
0 clearances
0 blocks

On the other hand, the worst player at Barca (according to our forum) and a guy for whom people are asking: seriously, what is he contributing to a team nowadays?
Last 5 matches:
5 tackles
17 interceptions
4 clearances
1 block

So, for guys who would like to see Coutinho-Arthur midfield and who say that EV is clueless for not trying that magical duo, look at another scary stat:
Messi, 16 matches, 1 interception
Suarez, 17 matches, 3 interceptions
Dembele, 17 matches, 4 interceptions
Arthur 12 matches, 3 interceptions
Coutinho 16 matches, 7 interceptions
= these 5 players (whom people would like to field together) have played:
78 matches this season
And they have 18 interceptions COMBINED in total over 78 matches.

"The worst player at Barca", who contributes nothing, Rakitic:
17 matches
33 interceptions

So:
Rakitic alone=33 interceptions
Messi&Suarez&Dembele&Coutinho&Arthur combined=18 interceptions

Let's just compare Arthur and Vidal in the Getafe match
Arthur: Aerials Won 1, Tackles 1
Vidal: Aerials Won 2, Tackles 1
But who had a better match?

I don't say that Arthur is better than Vidal but the stats alone can't be used to estimate player contribution

 

[BBZ8800]

Let's just compare Arthur and Vidal in the Getafe match
Arthur: Aerials Won 1, Tackles 1
Vidal: Aerials Won 2, Tackles 1
But who had a better match?

I don't say that Arthur is better than Vidal but the stats alone can't be used to estimate player contribution

Simplified, in this moment:
If we'll play Vidal-Raki-Busi=we'll win almost every match.
And not concede too many.

If you'll play Arthur, you'll get the same attacking result and a weaker defense.

Can you say that our midfield played visibly better with Arthur against Getafe than in the last 5 matches without him, which we have all won?

I have wrote earlier, with Vidal-Busi-Raki, we conceded only 1 goal in 5 matches and had 4 clean sheets.
With Arthur, before Getafe, we were conceding 1,63 goals per match when Arthur starts.
So, whenever he is on a field, we concede 1 or 2.

He didn't dissapoint in terms of stats again.
We struggled not to concede a 2nd goal.
We conceded 1, and Getafe had hit the post once, iirc, right?

This could be just a wild coincidence.
We will see on a larger sample whether midfield trios with Arthur will always concede more goals (and allow way more big opportunities in our box) than Vidal-Busi-Raki.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] you win in the attacking phase by playing Arthur. And you can also win in the defensive phase, because defense doesn't only mean tackles and interceptions, those are only reactive ways of defending, but there are also proactive ways of defending. Having players who can keep the ball and cut the bad giveaways to a minimum is helpful for a team's defense.

You say we need balance, but balance means also having players who keep the ball well, we shouldn't completely forget that. The better we keep the ball, the less chances the other team has to catch us off guard. The hardest to block for a defense are attacks that happen when a ball is lost in a very dangerous area. Arthur, simply because he loses the ball so rarely, and he misplaces so few passes, is one of the safest players for our defense.

We are a possession side in the end. We can't just not play our best player in terms of keeping the ball because this way, we'd basically be trying to be a poor version of Juventus or Atletico Madrid from midfield down.

Things aren't that simple as you make them. Arthur is not a defensively liability. You may have a point in the case of Coutinho, as in it's harder for him to play in midfield without some tracking back from the front 3. But not with Arthur.

 

[Cule4life]

So BBZ would have us scrambling in defense rather than handling the opposition press and pushing forward. Somebody let the poor guy know there's another soul team for him out there.

 

[Arizona Scott]

So BBZ would have us scrambling in defense rather than handling the opposition press and pushing forward. Somebody let the poor guy know there's another soul team for him out there.

The best Barca teams were great defensively, and offensively. Invariably you have to win some matches 1-0, 2-1, on the way to glory. World class players typically do both with a few exceptions (Messi, CR, VVD, Godin, etc).

 

[Cule4life]

The best Barca teams were great defensively, and offensively. Invariably you have to win some matches 1-0, 2-1, on the way to glory. World class players typically do both with a few exceptions (Messi, CR, VVD, Godin, etc).

The best Barca team was 2010-11. Don't remember them being full of workhorses and defending 1-0 leads.

 

[BBZ8800]

The best Barca team was 2010-11. Don't remember them being full of workhorses and defending 1-0 leads.

Yeah.
You don't get it.
Players in 2010-11 were great BOTH in attack and defense.
Arthur is good only in attacking (controlling) part.

For example, midfielders from 2010-11 vs current Arthur:
Tackles, La Liga:
2,3 Busquets
1,5 Iniesta
1,0 Xavi
0,5 Arthur 2018

Interceptions:
2,9 Busquets
1,5 Iniesta
1,0 Xavi
0,3 Arthur

So, you see, YodaMaster was selling a story a few days ago that Arthur is having a low number of tackles/interceptions ONLY becasue he is playing higher up the pitch than Rakitic.
But now, pick Busi-Xavi-Iniesta midfield.
In which position out of those 3 is Arthur playing?

If you say: in Xavi's position.
Well, Xavi had 1+1=2,0 tackles and interceptions per match.
Arthur has 0,8.

If you say: he plays at Iniesta's position, again, even Iniesta from his more advanced position was able to make 3 tackles&interceptions per match.
Arthur has 0,8.

So, no matter in which position you put him, he is offering way weaker defensive input even than light players like Xavi and Iniesta.
And on top of all, football evolved till then.

In terms of key passes, the same:
Key passes per match, LA liga:
2,5 Xavi 2011
1,6 Iniesta 2011
0,8 Busquets 2011
0,7 Arthur 2018

So, my point is: while Arthur is a good player, you guys are overrating him a lot.

Since he is compared with Xavi and with Xavi's style, it could be compared (currently like this):
1. controlling=Arthur is good, and plays somewhat like Xavi
2. press resistance=Arthur is good and plays like Xavi
But:
3. defending=Arthur is way weaker even than Xavi
4. forward passes and creation=Arthur is again weaker than Xavi

I know, people will say: it is stupid to compare players with Xavi.
But still, Arthur is similar to him in some areas.
But way weaker in some others.

My point is: you are trying to copy Pep's ideas in 2019, with players who are weaker copies than those players.
Plus, teams have figured out that system and a football in general is faster and more physical than back then.

Btw, my posts here lately started because numerous posts saying: we should try Coutinho-Arthur midfield.
My point: in 2019, you are asking for troubles with that type of midfield pairing.

My other point is, currently, Vidal-Rakitic-Busi trio is the best.
In numbers, pulled from my ass:
Attack: 80%
Defense: 90% with that trio.

With Arthur instead of Raki or Vidal:
Attack: raising to 90%
Defense: dropping to 60%

So, yeah, I could agree with you guys (Serghei) that our attack/midfield/possession/beautiful play is better with Arthur, but on the other hand, we lose MORE in defense than what we are gaining in attack.
It is not as if we are winning 1:0 with Vidal-Rakitic and 5:0 with Arthur.
In reality, it is more like:
2:0, 3:0, 4:0 with Vidal-Raki and 2:0, 2:2, 2:0, 3:3 with Arthur, TILL NOW.

When stats and results will speak for Arthur, I will change my mind.
Btw, I have changed my mind about Semedo (since numbers are on his side and results in defense are better when he plays).
So, in this moment, in stats, our best combination is: Semedo + Vidal-Busi-Raki.

 

[soul24rage]

My other point is, currently, Vidal-Rakitic-Busi trio is the best.

For me, I think it is risky to try Cou-Arthur combo at this stage of the season (maybe we can try it in the Copa del Rey or in the March international friendlies for Brazil). The best time to try this would have been at the beginning of the season imo. Maybe we'll try that next season with a different manager if EV leaves. For people who want to see how the Cou-Arthur combo works, they played together in the Nov. international friendly vs Argentina and I think it has potential.

For the best mid trio for the rest of the season, I think we have two with each has its own advantage and disadvantage. I would play:
-Rakitic, Busi, Arthur against teams who pressures us a lot.
-Vidal, Busi, Rakitic against teams who are more defensive.

It really depends on what kind of team we are facing, and I hope EV scouts the opposition well and pick the right players.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Yeah.
You don't get it.
Players in 2010-11 were great BOTH in attack and defense.

Thank you. Personally I think the 08-09 squad was the best team in history. But even the 10-11 team won and lost competitions with some tight scorelines (largely with 1-1, 0-1, 2-0 results vs Real). They also one La Liga because they gave up the fewest goals, even though outscored by Real.

People just don't remember the kinds of ball pressure they applied as a team, and how great Puyol, Pique and Busi were at snuffing out the counters. Masch in is prime not at their level (among the best ever at their positions) but world class in breaking up play and timing of tackles too. Barca from 2012 on was never as good as 08-11 because the defense became more leaky. I think the age and fitness decline of Puyol was a not insignificant factor.

 

[YodaMaster]

Thiago is not as good as Busi and Rakitic, and there was a reason in some big games last year Vidal was starting over him. Kroos is a fine, well rounded, midfielder.

Thiago is (far) superior to Rakitic in all football aspects. Better passer, better under pressure, quicker, smarter, 10 times more mobile, better dribbler, better vision, he's even better defensively lol. Even has better defensive stats and he doesn't need to play as low as a centre back to achieve that unlike Rakitic. Plus he came from Masia and has Barça DNA, do I need to say that he'd be 1000 times a better fit than Rakitic at Barcelona ?

Vidal started ahead of Thiago ? Yeah Thiago should have gone to the match straight from the hospital bed when he was injured.
Only thing that Rakitic is better at than Thiago is that he's not as injury prone. Otherwise, it's not even close.


I don't know in what world you live to say such things.

 

[Messigician]

Thiago is the most overated ated player of all time

 

[Cule4life]

How long till Arthur starts racking up the tackles and BBZ disappears from this thread again?

If you think the 2010-11 team defended by brute tackles and interceptions then either you don't understand football or never watched them. They had insane off the ball movement, not allowing the opposition to string a couple of passes together (pressing) and take the ball off of them (press resistance like Arthur). If Arthur and the whole team start having proper pressing/off the ball movement then we'll be much better as a defensive unit on the lines of the 2010-11 team. But for that we need a proper system which we won't get under Valverde.

But you never see BBZ criticizing his guru Valverde. To deflect criticism off of him he blames the players for not being good enough in his non existent system. They have to be insane workhorses doing last minute tackles cos there's no proper defensive/offensive system in place.

I'd rather we keep the ball better and not do bad turnovers for which we end up scrambling to defend. But that wouldn't suit the pure stats driven world of BBZ. He seems to think chaotic last ditch tackles are what makes a team a good defensive unit.

How many more mistakes does BBZ have to make (Arthur, Willian, Dembele etc. etc.) for you ppl to stop revering him as some kind of deity

 

[YodaMaster]

I'd rather we keep the ball better and not do bad turnovers for which we have end up scrambling to defend. But that wouldn't suit the pure stats driven world of BBZ. He seems to think chaotic last ditch tackles are what makes a team a good defensive unit.

Exactly why I keep telling him that stats don't mean shit. But he doesn't care, he'll bring up stats in his next message about Arthur. Dude even compared Arthur's defensive stats to those of 2010 Xavi and Iniesta. He doesn't understand that there are plenty different ways of defending.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Stats are very useful in contexts. It is why all the professional sports now use them as part of decision making.

Even the purest ball control teams need defending. There are always counters, and when you attack, attack, bring many men forward, you sometimes leave defenders exposed. It is no one thing to defending, but having back line players who hold up well in those situations, and a squad ready to win the ball make when perfection isn't sustained (lose the ball, it happens), are keys to having the most dominant clubs.

I disagree Thiago is an all around better player than Rakitic for what Barca needs, but I recognize other opinions. With more weight on Thiago than Vidal this year Bayern doesn't look like a better squad. Rakitic was also much better at the WC than Thiago--where you take away the difficulties of playing with more sophisticated club schemes. Again though, I recognize as an opinion for my preference of Rakitic among these 2 given Barca's overall needs.

Many of these recent threads just further reinforce to me how underappreciated Puyol, Pique, Busquets and later Mascherno were to the dominant Barca teams. How they were so good they could limit damage/risk from counters and even occasionally being out numbered and snuffing out others' attacks. This helped facilitate so many other players being more forward, possessing the ball, and attacking. It all had to be there for the best of the best Barca teams.