Arthur

[Cule4life]

Many of these recent threads just further reinforce to me how underappreciated Puyol, Pique, Busquets and later Mascherno were to the dominant Barca teams. How they were so good they could limit damage/risk from counters and even occasionally being out numbered and snuffing out others' attacks. This helped facilitate so many other players being more forward, possessing the ball, and attacking. It all had to be there for the best of the best Barca teams.

Wait a minute here you are saying Puyol, Pique, Busquets defended well without much help from the rest of the team but on the other hand you are slagging Arthur for not helping the defense? Why are our current defenders not being held to the same standard as Puyol then? And why is Arthur being held to a higher standard than the previous MFs who according to your logic didn't help Puyol and Pique much?

Seems the cognitive dissonance virus has spread through the whole of the BBZ posse

 

[Jombi]

I dont think its fair to use sub appearances and starts where the player is subbed off in these "statistic per match" discussions. Its disingenuous. For example, Arthur has played more minutes per match in the CL than La Liga, so both his defensive and offensive stats "per match" are better in the CL than in La Liga.

 

[YodaMaster]

I dont think its fair to use sub appearances and starts where the player is subbed off in these "statistic per match" discussions. Its disingenuous. For example, Arthur has played more minutes per match in the CL than La Liga, so both his defensive and offensive stats "per match" are better in the CL than in La Liga.

This.

But BBZ will continue to talk about Liga and only Liga stats cause they fit better his narratives.

 

[Potroh]

How long till Arthur starts racking up the tackles and BBZ disappears from this thread again?

You are damn right about bringing in the off the ball movements.

But BBZ will never understand or deal with that, because for him defending means tall, strong and mediocre players, who rush against the wall all the time... he dislikes refined and skilled players, he wants to see gladiators sacrificing their lives on the pitch (aided with meaningless statistics).
Just read his older posts mentioning Andre Gomes and you'll understand his soul...

 

[Cule4life]

Just read his older posts mentioning Andre Gomes and you'll understand his soul...

Oh i have done that plenty. Let me recount another BBZ gem when even he couldn't defend Gomes "Every manager makes 4 good decisions and 1 bad decision and Valverde's bad decision was Gomes"

The dude didn't even hesitate to put out such an idiotic statement in order to defend his chosen one. That takes guts.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Wait a minute here you are saying Puyol, Pique, Busquets defended well without much help from the rest of the team but on the other hand you are slagging Arthur for not helping the defense? Why are our current defenders not being held to the same standard as Puyol then? And why is Arthur being held to a higher standard than the previous MFs who according to your logic didn't help Puyol and Pique much?

The 8-9 and 10-11 teams had great offensive AND defensive balance. That is the context of this conversation. Really except for Messi everyone has to be an above average defensive player IMO for Barca to make a solid run at trifectas+.

Barca still did great post 2011, but also lost a lot of titles once Puyol broke down/retired. That happened (more CL losses than wins for example) with the best midfield that ever played and Leo Messi at his peak. They simply leaked a few key goals in some ties they needed to eek out. Now I would say the backline isn't as good as those prior teams (Pique, Puyol, Alves + Busi as a DCM--all in their peak) so it is even more imperative the team is collectively better defensively. Again the theme is players who are very good or great with and without the ball in possession.

I dont think its fair to use sub appearances and starts where the player is subbed off in these "statistic per match" discussions. Its disingenuous. For example, Arthur has played more minutes per match in the CL than La Liga, so both his defensive and offensive stats "per match" are better in the CL than in La Liga.

It is possible the sample size in both league and CL is just too small to make a larger generalization on Arthur yet. He hasn't even had one year in major professional soccer. This is in contrast to alternatives for the midfield such as Raki, Busi & Vidal (or Roberto). However Arthur will need to have better marks in interceptions and/or tackles.

I would be curious about historical data on Xavi and tackles and interceptions. It is possible he was below par (or maybe not). If that is the case Xavi was below par in those metrics than if Arthur can control and dictate like him I'll have a place for him and select players around him to compensate.

 

[BBZ8800]

This.

But BBZ will continue to talk about Liga and only Liga stats cause they fit better his narratives.

Hmm, you'll need a new alibi (I see: now the team is bad, not applying a pressure and this is why Arthur's defensive stats are weaker than Xavi's and Iniesta's from 2011. Hmm, interesting. How come that Rakitic, Vidal and others, even though they are playing in a poor system, having way, way, way, way, way better defensive stats than Arthur?)

Let's check tackles and interceptions PER MINUTE then, not per match.
La Liga:
Arthur, 670 minutes, 6 tackles, 3 interceptions, 1 clearance, 0 blocks.
Rakitic, 1436 minutes, 15 tackles, 33 interceptions, 11 clearances, 4 blocks.
Vidal, 693 minutes, 25 tackles, 10 interceptions, 6 clearances, 1 block.

Now, let's see these stats PER MINUTE, in La Liga:
Tackles:
28 minutes, Vidal (1 tackle each 28 minutes)
96 minutes, Rakitic
112 minutes, Arthur

Interceptions:
44 minutes, Rakitic
69 minutes, Vidal
223 minutes, Arthur

Clearances:
116 minutes, Vidal
131 minutes, Rakitic
670 minutes, Arthur

So, Arthur needs 112 minutes on average to make ONE TACKLE, and 223 MINUTES to make ONE INTERCEPTION.

So, if you'll use an alibi:
= Arthur plays further up the pitch than Raki and Vidal.
Well, even Dembele, Coutinho and Rafinha have more tackles&interceptions per minute than Arthur.
Even though they play at the same position or even more higher up the pitch.

Btw, I am not saying that Arthur is a bad player.
But you guys are overrating him insanely, plus you are totally neglecting defending.
And all you see is: controlling, little turns and press resistance.

In some matches, his skills are very useful.
In other matches, his skills are not needed and his defensive skills are suicidal.

 

[serghei]

Hmm, you'll need a new alibi (I see: now the team is bad, not applying a pressure and this is why Arthur's defensive stats are weaker than Xavi's and Iniesta's from 2011. Hmm, interesting. How come that Rakitic, Vidal and others, even though they are playing in a poor system, having way, way, way, way, way better defensive stats than Arthur?)

Let's check tackles and interceptions PER MINUTE then, not per match.
La Liga:
Arthur, 670 minutes, 6 tackles, 3 interceptions, 1 clearance, 0 blocks.
Rakitic, 1436 minutes, 15 tackles, 33 interceptions, 11 clearances, 4 blocks.
Vidal, 693 minutes, 25 tackles, 10 interceptions, 6 clearances, 1 block.

Now, let's see these stats PER MINUTE, in La Liga:
Tackles:
28 minutes, Vidal (1 tackle each 28 minutes)
96 minutes, Rakitic
112 minutes, Arthur

Interceptions:
44 minutes, Rakitic
69 minutes, Vidal
223 minutes, Arthur

Clearances:
116 minutes, Vidal
131 minutes, Rakitic
670 minutes, Arthur

So, Arthur needs 112 minutes on average to make ONE TACKLE, and 223 MINUTES to make ONE INTERCEPTION.

So, if you'll use an alibi:
= Arthur plays further up the pitch than Raki and Vidal.
Well, even Dembele, Coutinho and Rafinha have more tackles&interceptions per minute than Arthur.
Even though they play at the same position or even more higher up the pitch.

Btw, I am not saying that Arthur is a bad player.
But you guys are overrating him insanely, plus you are totally neglecting defending.
And all you see is: controlling, little turns and press resistance.

In some matches, his skills are very useful.
In other matches, his skills are not needed and his defensive skills are suicidal.

The plan is to get a manager who uses more modern ways of defending, so we don't have to play 3 defenders in midfield to keep the other teams from scoring. Valverde is stuck somewhere in the 90's to early 00's in terms of tactics.

You undervalue the importance of a system. You take Savic from Atletico, and he's gonna be terrible at Barcelona. But at Atletico he's part of the best defense in the league. Football is well past a point where each player does a job without correlation with his teammates. Valverde's style is way way too simplistic for us to be able to beat the better prepared teams out there.

We are outmatched in: intensity, tactics, fitness level, work ethic against a number of opponents. We only have one big advantage, and that is superior talent in the squad in the form of many match winners. That is sometimes enough, but other times it just isn't.

Sadly, with someone like Valverde in charge, our best hope is for some of our stars, namely Messi and Suarez, possibly Dembele too, to somehow play out of their minds at the right time, and ride that wave, with the vibe created, all the way until the end. Maybe hope that in the process some players really step up.

Now, about tackles and interceptions. If a player is positioned well on the field, it's not likely that the opponent will force to go through him. So there's no tackle, and no interception, because there is no opportunity for the attacking team to ask the question so to speak. Many times there is a tackle and an interception because an area is exposed, thus allowing the opponent to access that space. An area is exposed usually when 3 things happen. 1) the ball is lost in a bad place, 2) the tactics on display are poor, 3) there is a mistake in positioning from a player.

So basically, we may have a case -- this is just football theory -- of players being horrible positionally, while also having high numbers of interceptions and tackles. While other players don't have those high numbers simply because they do the job well at keeping the shape so that there's no gaps in the defensive line. You see these things in EPL quite often, many players doing tackles and interceptions 'solving' problems they themselves created due to poor positioning or rash decisions.

Technically, if I do a bad pass, then I do a tackle and get the ball back, then I try a dribble, fail, and then get the ball back again with an interception, I'll have 2 turnovers (in the form of failed pass and unsuccessful take-on), 1 tackle and 1 interception. Is that better than not making the bad pass in the first place?

 

[YodaMaster]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]

Yeah and Rakitic and Vidal needs 150 min to break pressure once.
Vidal is a beast defensively, he'll always have better stats than majority of midfielders.

Why do you ignore CL stats ? Liga stats are twisted because Arthur didn't start that often in Liga.
In CL he started almost all the matches he played and you see that his stats are far better.

Also why do you ignore the better competition (CL) stats and give the priority to a weaker competition (Liga) ?
Rakitic, Busquets, Xavi, etc all have/had worse stats in CL because it's more competitive.
How do you explain Arthur having better stats in CL ?

Btw, stop your obsession with stats you're making a clown out of yourself. Take off the stats and you've got nothing else to say it seems.

 

[Jombi]

Hmm, you'll need a new alibi

Thats just silly. I understand that you desperately want to defend your ego, slating the guy before you knew anything about him a year ago, simply because he was a young Brazilian like Neymar (who you predicted would be another Robinho in Europe). The guy is no new xavi, thats very unfair to Arthur, but he has been a very solid addition to the squad and far better than you predicted, so just be happy about that instead of trying to defend your ego all the time.

 

[Gnidrologist]

How long till Arthur starts racking up the tackles and BBZ disappears from this thread again?

If you think the 2010-11 team defended by brute tackles and interceptions then either you don't understand football or never watched them. They had insane off the ball movement, not allowing the opposition to string a couple of passes together (pressing) and take the ball off of them (press resistance like Arthur). If Arthur and the whole team start having proper pressing/off the ball movement then we'll be much better as a defensive unit on the lines of the 2010-11 team. But for that we need a proper system which we won't get under Valverde.

But you never see BBZ criticizing his guru Valverde. To deflect criticism off of him he blames the players for not being good enough in his non existent system. They have to be insane workhorses doing last minute tackles cos there's no proper defensive/offensive system in place.

I'd rather we keep the ball better and not do bad turnovers for which we end up scrambling to defend. But that wouldn't suit the pure stats driven world of BBZ. He seems to think chaotic last ditch tackles are what makes a team a good defensive unit.

How many more mistakes does BBZ have to make (Arthur, Willian, Dembele etc. etc.) for you ppl to stop revering him as some kind of deity

This is great summary of what i myself wanted to post after reading this another spreadsheet of BBZ Stats Central.
In Pep system we were suffocating opposite team right from the moment they got the bal and most of our ball retention was due to rapidly closing any opportunity lines that opposition might've taken. We broke the opposite team in transition 90% of the time, which is why we were vulnerable, when they actually got through our press. Luckilyu we had guys like Puyol and later Mascherano, who took the noble duty of cleaning up the mess, when thing got dirty. Rakitic or Busquets aren't that kind of defenders. They are great at reading the game and reacting accordingly, but are no saviors when shit hits the fan with our overall static movement. Likes of Iniesta and Xavi had most of their interceptions and tackles in the opposite half of the field, when we employed extreme collective pressing, then so called 6 seconds rule by Pep. They were by any means effective "defensive workhorses" in system that Valverde employs.
We would actually thrive, if every player on the team was more like Arrthur with his relentless movement off the ball both defensively and when we have possession. Even likes of Puig, who is probably lost cause for conservative work horse fans like BBZ, would rack up defensive stats like carazy, if we played aggressive, proactive football. He is very agile, quick and i've seen him take the ball away from much larger, bulkier player by sheer speed of movement and thinking. That's the way we broke opposition, not by conservative defensive reduts like with V. Mourinho is great example in his stint at MU. Potentially great team, with lot of young, technical players bogged down by a retrogressive coach, who still lives in the 80s.

Imagine comedic relief picture, where whole of our team is made of Arthurs. We would be vulnerable as fuck against areal and sheer physical force attacks, but we would never ever give a ball away so...

 

[Arizona Scott]

Well call me on balance a BBZ fan, certainly in context of the midfield evaluation. I happen to think Arthur (and Malcolm) is quite overrated in terms what they are ready to produce right now, and the contributions of Rakitic and Vidal quite underrated. I am looking forward to a midfield of Busi, Rakitic and Vidal going to war in big CL matches--and hopefully be fresh enough (this is on EV to rotate and get Arthur playing just about every la Liga match, I would prefer plenty of time to Coutinho in the midfield too). I see many things Rakitic and Vidal do that are not fully appreciated among many posters here. If if you didn't know it from Barca (or Vidals case other clubs too) I think if you paid attention to the biggest matches on their national teams in the last 3 years it its obvious they would stand out as among the best all around midfielders in the world. Suarez is another completed underrated member of the Barca squad in this forum.

Now the anti-EV sentiment might be appropriate and accurate. Maybe there are collective defending, conditioning and team movement that needs to be stressed more. But we forgot what he walked into, how last september, after being bombed by Real in the supercup, how impressive (and satisfied) it would have seemed to have 17-18 league and spanish cup. EV has the best overall talent in the world (or at least even with maybe 2 others) and is in now year 2, after returning the league title back to its rightful owners last season. Now there are no excuses for this roster losing 3-0 or 4-1 in a match, and from players to fans (and hopefully his boss) surely he now knows readiness for the CL is the priority.

One final thing. The league matches against Real and Atletico have ever bit as intensity and quality as the CL does (typically more quality--a heck of lot more than shown in the Roma matches). It isn't legit to highlight just CL elimination round loses as some of big indicators but not equally considering those matches (or the dismantling of probably a top 8 Spurs team in London this fall). The main difference is timing, and Barca does keep having these March/April tailing off problems and EV didn't correct it last year. That is why I think it is so key to rotate and have the key players fresh--we will see, and he will be judged if he learned. Though quite truly if Barca draw City or Liverpool in the round of 8 or 4 those will about 50/50 ties on talent. Atletico, Juv, PSG and Bayern might be a little more straitforward but super dangerous too. You almost always need breaks in the CL--good draws, a couple good calls or bounces of the ball. But losing 3-0 or 4-1 in a match just can't be allowed to happen nor should an exit to a team the caliber of Roma.

 

[clemente]

Holy shit he has been superb in the first half

 

[Respekt_III]

Motm in the first half for me.

 

[YodaMaster]

Holy shit he has been superb in the first half

He's been Xavi and Iniesta in one body if you compare with his partner CM, Mr. Rakitic lol.

But objectively judging, he's been just good imo. Huge contribution in build ups from the back. But he also needs to make his presence felt way more in the last third.

He's not a complete, all around midfielder yet. And he has to work on that because he clearly has the talent.