Arthur

[booge]

Arthur is not as good as the likes of Rakitic, Modric, Kroos.
Don't see his long term future at Barcelona.

 

[xXKonan]

Arthur is not as good as the likes of Rakitic, Modric, Kroos.
Don't see his long term future at Barcelona.

One of those is not like the others.

Rakitic? the same guy that is being kept out of the XI by Sergi Roberto and the same guy that Lucho wanted Andre Gomes to start ahead of. His ball retention and press resistance alone are far better than Rakitic ever had.

 

[soul24rage]

Arthur is not as good as the likes of Rakitic, Modric, Kroos.
Don't see his long term future at Barcelona.

Did you not see Arthur owning Modric and Kroos last season? For our team needs, Arthur is better than Rakitic (Both Rakitic and Busi should not start for us imo)

 

[BBZ8800]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] if you put that kind of effort into trying to understand football tactics, and not posting context-less numbers and blaming players all the time, you'd be the best poster around here. But alas, you're not. A shame. You have the passion for football imo, but it's directed in all the wrong areas. The best things about football analysis is not to find out how many xG whatever key passes Y made or how many back passes X made, but to try to figure out why things happen in football the way they do. For that you simply need extensive tactical knowledge. You lack even a minimum understanding of even the most basic terms. Otherwise you're one of the best posters around here, but because you care so little about the tactical aspect of the game, every single issue in a team for you is explained in a very basic, simple way: this player is not good. He is either not strong, passes too much backwards, or whatever flaws you find in him.

I'll reply to your post because you bring a lot more to a table than Villarubi and similar guys.
I'll reply to his post later, even though, why bother since we will only go into circles?

About this tactical part about me, you are totally right.
I know my deficiences.
I am watching football, but I have never actually read books about tactics, movement and similar.
On the other hand, with you or some posters (I think DonAndres, DonAk, Sumlit etc), it is clear that you have read books and articles and that you are on a way higher level than my basics.

So, if we were coaches or presidents of Barca, I would for example pick you as a coach.
Since you understand movement, who should do what, who should move where, who should press, how should players position themselves in attack, defense, on the ball, off the ball.
Again, my knowledge there is like 2-3 out of 10 (lol, I'll regret this honest post. Guys who are against me will quote this line till death).
But then again, with you as a coach, I would pick at least 2-3 more guys and each should have different duties.
For example, I would pick myself as an assistant who would talk to players, judge their personality, motivation, mental strength and check whether they have some deadly flaws.
You see, since you know about tactics and movement, you probably can spot easily in posts from people here: who has awesome, average or poor tactical knowledge.
The same, I feel the same way for 95% of users here when we talk about player's IQ, personality, motivation and all psychological problems.
Remember that I said that Dembele is dumb as fuck after 2 matches. Others needed 2 years to see that. Potroh, the coach, was offended till a few weeks ago when I said that Dembele is dumb.
My point: you know tactics. But you, for example, lack vision about IQ, mental strength and some other aspects.
So, to turn YOU into a good coach, you would need an assistant/director who would never hire Dembeles, scared Sampers, scared Bartas, dumb Halilovics and similar.
So, the other coach would get you the right players, and then YOU, who have tactical knowledge would teach those guys, who have some IQ, how to run and move.
Otherwise, if you hire dumb guys like Dembele and Halil, you are losing money and time since they will never be able to learn and execute your tactical ideas. This is why Pep also doesn't buy dumb players.

Also, what I don't agree with majority of you, is as always, some patterns learned over 20-30 years of Barca's defeats, and those are my famous:
1. more physique than usual Barca's team
2. some height in defense for corners
3. 3 way attacking (Rijkaard's way)

So, in short: my tactical knowledge of movement is meh.
But I do think that I have some virtues in other areas which 90% of users here don't see, like spotting a dumb players easily (Alexis, Halil, Dembele) from his look in the eye, face expressions, body language, decisions, interviews, celebrations after goals.
Or scared players who will never make it (scared Samper, scared Bartra, anxious Dybala).
In that sense, let's say that I can make more mistakes in tactical areas, but my predictions about player's IQ and mental skills were usually spot on.

In that sense, regardless of Arthur's movement and coach's tactics, I can almost 90% guarantee to you that=what you see today, that is what you will get till his retirement, since those are his instinctive skills and patterns.
So, about Arthur, if you were a coach, you should forget=he will improve in attack blah blah. He won't.
So, the question is now=whether you can make use of his current skills and flaws mixed with skills of other teammates.
So, if you can turn his current skillset into a world class midfield trio (without too much improvements from his side), then fine.
You are a better coach then me, it is up to you.

Regarding Xavi.
Well, he had all ingredients: attacking, defending, passing, scoring, IQ, knowing our tactics.
He was just guided bad and had bad teammates.
Remember, maybe Rijkaard alone was not a genius? He had an assistant Ten Cate.
Maybe they worked in a way as I have described above. And when Ten Cate left in 2006 we started to play way weaker and lacked tactical ideas and brave subs from earlier years, maybe we lost a huge part of tactical planning and knowledge since Rijkaard had a different set of skills?
So, yes, a good coach can improve a team.
But ONLY with right players.
This is where 90% of people of this forum fail. Since you didn't get how dumb Dembele is and that he can't be repaired.
Or that Arthur can't improve his forward game, in this case.

In page 323 I provided clear answers to these 'back & lateral passes' issue in the case of possession based players like Arthur. A possession based player will always recirculate the ball when no good pass option is available. But it is not his fault that these pass options don't exist. It's the manager's fault, who must develop a system where a pressed player on the ball needs to have several pass options around him. If he doesn't, and that happens time and time again, then it is clearly a managerial failure.

Again, I am not an expert like you.
But in 30 years of watching football, you learn some things.
And my eye test says: in the case of Arthur, he is not passing NOT because of weak options but because those are his natural instincts. NOT to pass.
Again, he is one of the weirdest players I have ever seen.

Players have tons of different flaws:
Some, like Riquelme (and Quaresma) are trying to make a killer pass in every single action. He doesn't know how to find a balance between waiting and making a deadly pass.
some players are dribbling in every single action (Adama, Neymar) and they don't know to find a balance between making simple passes and dribble in a right moment. For them, EVERY SINGLE action is the right moment.
Then, there are some players, like Arthur, for whom, NONE moment is the RIGHT moment to pass forward.
Again, my problem with him is that he is weird as fuck in that area.
And imo, irrepareable.
Just like Neymar's default instincts are: dribble, slow down and showboat. And when you ask him to play faster, he will listen for 6 Months and then move back to his instincts.
With Arthur, imo, he is the opposite: he always looks to play rondos. You can try to force him to play forward, but it will never be natural or as good as with players who have that skills in an instinctive way.

That is one more thing where I don't agree with you guys.
For you, you think that almost every flaw can be fixed and that every player can be turned into awesome by Pep.

Well, there will be a wild example here and there, but overall, you need to be less dreamy and except: it is what it is.
So, one more time, if you can create a lineup where Arthur will only do what he is currently doing and you will be able to get us to a CL title, I will give you a job and I won't whine about ARthur, as long as it will be working.
But one more time, please don't expect (major) improvements from him.
I can guarantee you that from a psychological point of view.

Why is it that your superb midfield of Busi, Rakitic and Vidal, without Arthur, managed by a good manager according to you was absolutely torn apart by a Liverpool missing their best players?

I explained that 100s of times.
From 1992 to 2006, we played every single time with Barca's DNA midfield.
We were a disgrace, until Rijkaard won with Van Bommel and Edmilson.
He sold Van Bommel then, and returned to Xavi-Deco=we had exits in 1/8 of a CL.

Then Pep came, had knowledge, 2 best midfielders ever, cheating codes Messi, and a best RB ever Alves, paired with Busi.
And we won in Barca's way.
Sorry, but I will never agree with you guys that HIS way is a winning way.
That way was tried 100s of times. And worked ONLY with Messi, Xavi-Iniesta-Busi-Alves.
Without those 5 players, those tactics were a failure year after year.

In that sense, I am writing for years that I would like 1-2 players with more physique and a more cautious approach.
If you watched Barca during 90s and 00s, you would probably ask for the same.
I thought that 3 workhorses could work.
After Anfield, I don't think that anymore.
But as said a lot of times: I still would never play 3 Alenas or Arthurs.
2 Arthurs and 1 Raki is better than 3 Arthurs.
Or, as I have explained, a pecking order:
1. Arthur-Arthur-Raki
2. Arthur-Raki-Raki
3. Arthur-Arthur-Arthur
4. Raki-Raki-Raki

So, 3 Rakis are shit, as seen last year.
But 3 Arthurs are alos shit, as seen from 1992 to 2006.
The best option is somewhere in between 2 Arthurs-1 Raki or 1 Arthur-2 Rakis (Rijkaard won that way).

Villarubi also mentioned above those 3 workhorses.
Yes, they failed.
But that doesn't mean that 3 Arthurs/Alenas/Puigs are the answer.
None of those 2 options are good. We need a mix.
** On the other hand, Liverpool won with 3 workhorses.
But then, they had 10s of things which you guys (imo) don't see, and I could help you (as an assistant coach):
1. two CBs with 190cm who can play defense and attacking corners. Unlike us
2. motivated team. Unlike us. Movement doesn't help here.
3. a fighting team. Unlike us. Tactical knowledge doesn't help if you have a team of pussies.
4. at least a 2 way attacking options (possession and counters). we had only possession.
5. we could say that they had even more physical midfield since their midfield is as equally as tall and strong, but they are even faster (paired with motivation and a combative spirit) and they will win majority of 50:50 duels.

So, yeah. A lot of you guys are way better in tactical area.
But that is a flaw of FC Barca. We think that everything could be solved with good tactics and good technique.
A club and fans don't look too much to psychology, motivation, leaders, physique and other aspects of the game about which I am preaching all the time.

So, I will bring you psychologically, physically and technically right players and then YOU teach them what to do.
I will suck without your tactical knowledge.
But you will also fail without psychology and some physique...

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], I will agree with you that I'm more idealistic when it comes to players, and you're more realistic and more pragmatic, with more than a hint of pessimism thrown in the mix. That's just the nature of each one of us.

Also, I have had mixed results in estimating the players' success because often I was way too optimistic about their ability to succeed and overcome the obstacles.

I've had players I didn't trust and have proved to be bad. Samper, Montoya, Bartra just to name a few. Alexis was imo a good player and in spite of his little success at Barcelona, he proved it in the Premier League, after proving it in Serie A too. Proved it with his national team too, being one of their most important players in their two back to back Copa America wins.

I had high hopes about Halilovic, but the kid is another lost talent for sure. I was terribly wrong with Gomes. A couple of good months when he was at Valencia made me think he was some raw talent, but he is just a decent player who had a top spell and played some good games vs Barca and Madrid. Scored some nice goals. There are many players like that.

With Dembele I was on the fence, but more on his side since I love players showing their Barcelona sympathy before signing for us. I have a weak spot for them. I am starting to lose every hope with him and should be sold probably.

In regards with Arthur though, I will agree with you when I see Arthur in a system which gives him good passing options and he's afraid to take them. Until then I will keep believing in him, in spite of the crass lack of competent management from Valverde.

Arthur is not allowed to play his game. And De Jong is starting to share the same fate. How many vertical good passes did De Jong make so far? Very very few. Wonder why? It's the same systemic problem that is causing the abundance of lateral and back passes from Arthur.

 

[Gaudi]

I actually agreed with BBZ from day one on many players but not with Arthur, I think in good system he can be world class. But without system only 0,0001% of players can be world class. Again with Liverpool but Handerson, Milner...they would look like idiots in our midfield...they look very good in Klopp's Liverpool.

Arthut is tempo player...he is not finisher nor a fancy dribbler, he moves and iniciates moves. That type of player will never have great stats on paper but they are motors of the team. Actually, while not the same, FDJ is similar in that aspect. But, when you have Messi, Dembele, Suarez, Griez and maybe even Neymar...only an idiot can not create a system where that works.


It is true though, that balance is more important than names...for example I don't rate Roberto world class but he adds movement, and when you had Raki and Busi in midfield you didn't have any movement.

Since we don't play with typical "destroyer", even Vidal is more box to box type of a player, if I was coach I would definitely try Arthur - FDJ combo without Busi. Because they could initiate movement with vertical balls and they do not go to high up the pitch leaving defence empty.

 

[DonAndres]

Liverpool is not the system we need to try to emulate. We don't have the players for that whatsoever and it'd take 3-4 years of squad upheaval and Messi retiring to get even close to that, plus it's a niche system that only looks great under a coach like Klopp.

And even then I wouldn't say they had 3 workhorses in midfield. Fabinho and Wijnaldum both made plenty of great technical plays in that tie and for Liverpool in general. Keita was also outplaying our midfield technically before he went down injured, and that's when Liverpool were on our throats at Camp Nou. Milner/Henderson are workhorses but even they make plenty of great key passes and reads during linkup, easily more than Rakitic/Vidal do for sure.

The system we should try to emulate is Ajax. If Ajax had played Liverpool in the final I think they'd actually have put up an extremely good fight even despite a far weaker roster. They are the perfect antithesis. Constant, calculated off the ball movement and great press resistance negates Liverpool's pressing. That's the kind of team FDJ thrives against, and everyone else on Ajax also thinks 1-2 steps ahead and the level of combination plays would certainly beat Liverpool's press. Plus, not being at Anfield would've helped Ajax further.

But you need players who all fit the philosophy, regardless of their experience level. It works best if EVERYONE buys into the system which gives every player an amplified support system to work off of and thrive. If I had to construct a team from our current roster that buys into that type of system like Ajax/City it'd look like this:

Ansu/Rafinha/Perez-Griezmann-Messi
--------Arthur---FDJ----Roberto
Alba--Lenglet--------Pique--------Semedo

Dembele's injuries pull him 3 steps backward every time he takes 1 step forward and he has been wildly erratic in the past months when he does play. Basically every single player in that front 6 does these 3 things:

1. Make the run before getting the pass to get available
2. Make the run on the ball before passing, to disrupt the defense and open space
3. Make the run AFTER passing, to keep the move going and keep supporting the play.

Whereas in our lineup at Anfield you had multiple deficiencies in every member of the front 6 for all three of those categories of action. Rakitic and Busquets in particular did none of those 3 things at all when they played.

 

[Gaudi]

Liverpool is not the system we need to try to emulate. We don't have the players for that whatsoever and it'd take 3-4 years of squad upheaval and Messi retiring to get even close to that, plus it's a niche system that only looks great under a coach like Klopp.

And even then I wouldn't say they had 3 workhorses in midfield. Fabinho and Wijnaldum both made plenty of great technical plays in that tie and for Liverpool in general. Keita was also outplaying our midfield technically before he went down injured, and that's when Liverpool were on our throats at Camp Nou. Milner/Henderson are workhorses but even they make plenty of great key passes and reads during linkup, easily more than Rakitic/Vidal do for sure.

The system we should try to emulate is Ajax. If Ajax had played Liverpool in the final I think they'd actually have put up an extremely good fight even despite a far weaker roster. They are the perfect antithesis. Constant, calculated off the ball movement and great press resistance negates Liverpool's pressing. That's the kind of team FDJ thrives against, and everyone else on Ajax also thinks 1-2 steps ahead and the level of combination plays would certainly beat Liverpool's press. Plus, not being at Anfield would've helped Ajax further.

But you need players who all fit the philosophy, regardless of their experience level. It works best if EVERYONE buys into the system which gives every player an amplified support system to work off of and thrive. If I had to construct a team from our current roster that buys into that type of system like Ajax/City it'd look like this:

Ansu/Rafinha/Perez-Griezmann-Messi
--------Arthur---FDJ----Roberto
Alba--Lenglet--------Pique--------Semedo

Dembele's injuries pull him 3 steps backward every time he takes 1 step forward and he has been wildly erratic in the past months when he does play. Basically every single player in that front 6 does these 3 things:

1. Make the run before getting the pass to get available
2. Make the run on the ball before passing, to disrupt the defense and open space
3. Make the run AFTER passing, to keep the move going and keep supporting the play.

Whereas in our lineup at Anfield you had multiple deficiencies in every member of the front 6 for all three of those categories of action. Rakitic and Busquets in particular did none of those 3 things at all when they played.

Agree with everything.

Just to be clear: I don't wish we emulate L'pool just using them as one example of a system in which things click.

 

[serghei]

Sounds good, but that is imo not happening under Valverde.

If we are to still think about a good system for static Barcelona Valverde, I think a more narrow formation would do us good, because players would naturally be closer to each other. I say this because Valverde's Barcelona doesn't do enough overloads in the area where the ball is. By not doing this players are simply inaccessible to each other by being too far out.

I see a bad over-reliance on fullbacks in build-up. This is not going to help us. Alba always and I mean always has greatly diminished offensive output against the biggest sides. I want our best players on the ball. Not Alba and Semedo.

This would be the best line-up for this season I think. Vidal and Alena and Rakitic (3rd bench option imo) as options from the bench.

Fullbacks ensure width but aren't played except when there's no other better way to construct an attack. I want 5-6 players who play in central or semicentral areas. When interiors (Roberto and Arthur move up) go up or wide fullbacks drop a bit and tuck in in the center providing a back outlay pass. Basically when a fullback is up, he'll have 3 pass options, corresponding forward (Suarez for Alba, Griezmann for Roberto), Messi the CAM-false9 player, and back press-reliever option to the two interiors in the halfspace, Arthur on Alba, and Roberto on Semedo. Plus a 4th option ensured by the brilliant movement of Frenkie. We sould also retain the option to switch play fast to the other side.

 

[DonAndres]

Agree with everything.

Just to be clear: I don't wish we emulate L'pool just using them as one example of a system in which things click.

I know, I was replying more to the point in BBZ's post about how Liverpool succeeded with 3 workhorses in midfield. I think, for one, that's an incomplete picture because Liverpool's midfield was also very strong technically. But even moreso, that we shouldn't try to succeed by Liverpool's model of success because I simply can't see this team or any version of this team in the next 4 years straight up outdoing Liverpool at what they do best. They really are a perfectly built team for the way they play.

 

[Gaudi]

Sounds good, but that is imo not happening under Valverde.

If we are to still think about a good system for static Barcelona Valverde, I think a more narrow formation would do us good, because players would naturally be closer to each other. I say this because Valverde's Barcelona doesn't do enough overloads in the area where the ball is. By not doing this players are simply inaccessible to each other by being too far out.

I see a bad over-reliance on fullbacks in build-up. This is not going to help us. Alba always and I mean always has greatly diminished offensive output against the biggest sides. I want our best players on the ball. Not Alba and Semedo.

This would be the best line-up for this season I think. Vidal and Alena and Rakitic (3rd bench option imo) as options from the bench.

Fullbacks ensure width but aren't played except when there's no other better way to construct an attack. I want 5-6 players who play in central or semicentral areas. When interiors (Roberto and Arthur move up) go up or wide fullbacks drop a bit and tuck in in the center providing a back outlay pass. Basically when a fullback is up, he'll have 3 pass options, corresponding forward (Suarez for Alba, Griezmann for Roberto), Messi the CAM-false9 player, and back press-reliever option to the two interiors in the halfspace, Arthur on Alba, and Roberto on Semedo. Plus a 4th option ensured by the brilliant movement of Frenkie. We sould also retain the option to switch play fast to the other side.

Yes, something like this, or Vidal, or Alena...but someone who adds some movement. Bascially the idea is to play without "Iniesta" type of a player but quickly move the ball to attacking trident and make them go 1 vs 1. Puig is probably hte one that looks the most like Iniesta but that is for another time and place. For now I would try like that.
Even though I don't think any of those players is currently world class.

 

[te amo barca]

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]
Spot on with our overreliance on the fullbacks. Proper possession-based teams do not progress their play through fullbacks and wings, they do it through the center by creating openings and players interchanging positions constantly. Our reliance on fullbacks to get the ball into the attacking third is actually one thing that always bites us in the ass against high energy pressing teams. They live for that shit. Once the ball is approaching the wing, it is much much easier to press there simply because the players are isolated there and it is easier to shut down all passing options.

 

[Messigician]

The new Malcom/Whipping Boy. Ernie always needs one to stamp his authority to the seniors.

Gomes 2017
Malcom 2018
Arthur 2019

 

[Marshall D Teach]

The new Malcom/Whipping Boy. Ernie always needs one to stamp his authority to the seniors.

Gomes 2017
Malcom 2018
Arthur 2019

I'd say it was Dembele in 2017 rather than Gomes. If anything Gomes got way more chances than he deserved.

 

[Messigician]

I'd say it was Dembele in 2017 rather than Gomes.

Nah Dembele had injuries. Gomes was proper thrown to way the wolves.