Arthur

serghei

Senior Member
[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]
Spot on with our overreliance on the fullbacks. Proper possession-based teams do not progress their play through fullbacks and wings, they do it through the center by creating openings and players interchanging positions constantly. Our reliance on fullbacks to get the ball into the attacking third is actually one thing that always bites us in the ass against high energy pressing teams. They live for that shit. Once the ball is approaching the wing, it is much much easier to press there simply because the players are isolated there and it is easier to shut down all passing options.

Yea, totally, and I mean it's like basic stuff. Everybody knows the smaller the space you can move, the easier it is to close it and press. Everybody except the one guy who can do something about this: Ernesto fucking Valverde.

Liverpool 2nd goal easy recipe:

Press the hell out of a bad player under pressure -> Rakitic. You know he'll panic very fast and will show his famous tunnel vision. Then press the most likely pass destination right away -> Alba. Take the ball back then square it centrally and that's how Wijnaldum scored the 2nd goal. Which was vital for Liverpool.

The trap and the key is to initially leave the wide pass semi-open. Which means you have to be close enough to press the receiving player very fast, but at the same time far enough to make the player in possession pass there in the first place.

It's like taking candy from a baby.
 
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Nazario1985

Senior Member
The new Malcom/Whipping Boy. Ernie always needs one to stamp his authority to the seniors.

Gomes 2017
Malcom 2018
Arthur 2019

Maybe one few things he did well except for Malcom.

Arthur is a good talent that need to be polished not yet ready to bring Something special to the Mid team.

And i think he know it when they got after FDJ.

Should be a squad player for this season and next season a starter IF he learned how to play offensively, he's top quality isn't needed except when we are in a very bad situation which not what we should be aiming for to begging with.
 

abiabi

Member
Arthur had exceptional games like vs Spurs away and vs Real Madrid where he owned MOdric, and actually shown top10 player in the world potential in a lot of games. Its crazy that he is not being given minutes
 

aqua2nd

New member
Maybe one few things he did well except for Malcom.

Arthur is a good talent that need to be polished not yet ready to bring Something special to the Mid team.

And i think he know it when they got after FDJ.

Should be a squad player for this season and next season a starter IF he learned how to play offensively, he's top quality isn't needed except when we are in a very bad situation which not what we should be aiming for to begging with.

You can't expect huge improvement if you don't trust the player and give him the minutes he needs. 20 minutes for preseason and 0 minutes in a 5-2 match is not a good sign from EV.
And we won't stack in midfield for long. Rakitic and Busquest are declining each season and we'll need a replacement really soon.
I rather use FDJ at CDM and Arthur at RCM than using FDJ at RCM
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
Yea, totally, and I mean it's like basic stuff. Everybody knows the smaller the space you can move, the easier it is to close it and press. Everybody except the one guy who can do something about this: Ernesto fucking Valverde.

Liverpool 2nd goal easy recipe:

Press the hell out of a bad player under pressure -> Rakitic. You know he'll panic very fast and will show his famous tunnel vision. Then press the most likely pass destination right away -> Alba. Take the ball back then square it centrally and that's how Wijnaldum scored the 2nd goal. Which was vital for Liverpool.

The trap and the key is to initially leave the wide pass semi-open. Which means you have to be close enough to press the receiving player very fast, but at the same time far enough to make the player in possession pass there in the first place.

It's like taking candy from a baby.

I agree with everything except that first point that good teams don't rely on their fullbacks. Fullback->winger passes are a hallmark of the very best ever (Alves, Lahm, Marcelo, etc.). Even under pressure, those players can play a pass up a narrow lane on the sideline and get the ball up at will. If anything, heavy octane offense from the fullbacks correspond to every single great team in the 2010's. Alves/Alba at Barca, Lahm/Alaba at Bayern, Marcelo/Carvajal, and Trent/Robertson. All elite fullback pairs that are capable of doing whatever they like up the entire flank, which opens up the offense greatly for their teams.

Width is synonymous with spacing, and utilizing the fullbacks draws defenders out to create far more space in the middle. Especially peak Barca and RM created chances at will against any team they played, and the fullbacks were amongst the most vital components.

The problem we have is that if the central 3-5 players can be negated completely, the abilities of the fullback essentially become redundant, for exactly the reasons you said about the likes of Rakitic and also Vidal at Anfield.

You don't need to press the fullback if you know the fullback's target can be completely nullified. Higher up the pitch that was Suarez who would fuck up most crosses he gets on the end of. Deeper down it was Rakitic, Vidal, and Busquets who were responsible. If your central players can't penetrate through the midfield/CB's, then basically 80+% of the opponent's half becomes a dead zone for you where nothing can or does happen. It is pointless to receive passes centrally because those players can't do anything with it but get choked by pressure. You're not going to be making progressive passes from central positions because they can't pass through lines.

Liverpool did exactly what you said, crowd and bully us in the center and forced us to play everything wide. Alba and Roberto were awful and could do nothing. Rakitic looked like a lost foot-soldier lost in a sea of rushing cavalry around him.
 

JohnN

Senior Member
To be fair, three actual workhorse midfielders would be good enough to retain a 3-0 lead on Anfield. But we only had one in that game.
It was a huge mistake because we didn't field the correct players for the tactical plan we had.
As far as Arthur is concerned, he reminds me of Xavi when he got older, just before Rakitic was signed. I remember everyone here was angry at Xavi because he stopped making forward passes and took no risks whatsoever. His only purpose became to retain possession for as long as possible. I still would like to see him combine with FDJ, then maybe he could show more attacking initiative.
 

Nazario1985

Senior Member
You can't expect huge improvement if you don't trust the player and give him the minutes he needs. 20 minutes for preseason and 0 minutes in a 5-2 match is not a good sign from EV.
And we won't stack in midfield for long. Rakitic and Busquest are declining each season and we'll need a replacement really soon.
I rather use FDJ at CDM and Arthur at RCM than using FDJ at RCM

We don't know what's going on behind the scenes, Valv and the board are not idiots either they are paying players to show what they got otherwise they will throw it asap, sometimes things gets different between players and the coach or maybe the board (abidal..etc) heard some story about his GF doing telling some shit talk but can't remember what's was the subject
 

xXKonan

Senior Member
We don't know what's going on behind the scenes,[B] Valv and the board are not idiots [/B]either they are paying players to show what they got otherwise they will throw it asap, sometimes things gets different between players and the coach or maybe the board (abidal..etc) heard some story about his GF doing telling some shit talk but can't remember what's was the subject

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serghei

Senior Member
[MENTION=12906]DonAndres[/MENTION]

You didn't understand me or perhaps I didn't explain it very clear.

First I need to define what 'center' or 'middle' means in the scope of this comment. By center I mean every area where a player can find a teammate and pass in a 360° angle. So if I am sort of near the sides, but I still have a teammate who is wider than me, by all accounts, I'm in a pretty central position in relation to my teammates. So center does not mean right in the middle of the park. But more occupying a place where I have teammates and options to continue the attack in every direction. If I look right and there is no-one wider than me in my team, and I'm sort of right near the sideline, then I am not in the center anymore.

All big teams will use the wings and can create very dangerous actions there, especially if you have skilled players like Messi, Neymar, Henry, Robben and top fullbacks like Marcelo, Lahm, Alves etc. But the question is not if you do it or not, all teams do it. It is about when you use the wings, and how you plan your wing attacks to improve the success rate, and create chances. The managers who don't have a strategy regarding this, basically go with the flow, and in this case the success or failure of attacks is mostly down to whatever form your star wing players are in on the night.

Let's say a defensive team has a middle-wing defensive coverage of 60% - 40%. They will reinforce the middle more, as it is normal, but would also be very careful in the wing and won't give too much space in the wide channels either. Which is quite common actually, because most teams don't move off the ball a lot when in positional attacking phase.

Valverde's Barcelona falls in this category. Not too much movement, very few changing of positions, not many off the ball triangles. You basically don't see these 'on the move' passing combinations, where players know each other almost telepathically. So, naturally vs a Valverde side, teams would basically reinforce the center, but not too much, knowing that without off the ball movement being great, it's quite hard to get away of markers.

So, Valverde's Barcelona faces teams that have this 60 - 40 balance between central coverage and wing coverage in defense. Let's make it 65-35, let's say Messi alone makes opposing teams be even more careful in the center, even though we all know Messi doesn't move too much.

Well, the main issue is that even this 60-40 ratio is enough for Valverde's Barcelona to start building on the flanks and take the easy option. It seems like it is a bit more space there. But it is actually an illusion. Alba is more free to receive the ball than Rakitic or Arthur, yes, since he is usually very wide, but Alba's options on the ball are downgraded by 50% due to more difficult access to his teammates once he gets in possession. Once on the wing, you have what? 1-2 options to pass if you're lucky. In the middle, you should have 3-4 minimum. So you build on the wings, because it is a bit more space there, but as soon as the ball actually gets played there, the attack dies down very fast. So the ball usually comes back because there are very poor prospects of carrying out a really dangerous actions in the absence of passing options. We spend so much time doing this, passing somewhere only for the ball to come back with nothing changing in the shape of the defending team. This is basically why having the ball for 75% of the time vs Bilbao created not even 1 single great scoring chance. We constantly moved the ball in zones that were easy to close for Bilbao with minimal switches.

Now this is where the approach differs in regards to great possession teams, like the ones Guardiola manages.

First a 60-40 ratio between central and wing coverage for the team doing defensive phase vs a Pep side is not enough. It's almost suicidal to only slightly reinforce the central channels vs Pep teams. But why can Guardiola's team maneuver the ball and ensure progression in situations where a team managed by Ernesto Valverde, even with Messi in it, is hopeless:

It's because of several reasons, and probably others I'm missing right in this moment:

1) Pep uses a very fluid system where players move around. It is harder to track and mark players who are in motion as opposed to players who are static. Nothing to say more here, it's pretty clear. Moving targets are harder to lock down and block.

2) Pep usually uses more technical midfielders than a coward like Valverde. Pep has even put a midfield trio of Gundogan, Silva, Bernardo. All these 3 players used to be attacking midfielders, some played as wing forwards even. All of them superior technically, all movers, all energetic, and all great passers. This means there are more chances to build qualitative superiority (since numerically superiority is hard to achieve in crowded zones). Rakitic vs 1 opponent who presses him is a 1 vs 1. Theoretically a 1 vs 1 is great for an elite side like Barcelona. Not here though, since Rakitic will piss himself under pressure. Bernardo vs 2 is actually a numerical disadvantage, but Bernardo Silva doesn't get scared. His close ball control and first touch, plus his feints, will often wrong foot 1 opponent right away, and the initial 1 vs 2 actually becomes 1 vs 1. Bernado has more chances to find a great pass or to dribble between 2 pressing defenders, than Rakitic has to do those things vs only 1. So here is an instance where a 1 vs 2 for City is way better than a 1 vs 1 for Barcelona. Also, the no1) point, the fluidity part, means that the two opponents who try to block Bernardo also have to worry about the possibility that other City players might make themselves available for a pass. So the 2 defenders while they outnumber Bernardo, have many things to worry about (like Bernardo's skill, his first touch, possibility that other players might appear in the hole, maybe the possibility of a 1-2 move etc.).

3) Pep's defenders are actually part of build-up. For Valverde, a lot of the time, defenders will stay back and mark air while the other team's strikers are defending behind the ball. They can move up and take more aggresive positions, to relieve other players, but Valverde is above all a safety first manager. So Ernie would have about 3-4 players behind the ball (the ball carrier + 2 CBs + 1 fullback at times). Pep will often have one of the CBs to carry the ball, allowing the midfielders to serve as pass options, while having the other CB positioned horizontally. So actually you go from as much as 4 players behind the ball in a Valverde positional attack, to 0 players behind the ball in a Pep Guardiola positional attack, or 1 player at best. More passing options, more chances to break the lines of the defending team. This is risky, true. But Guardiola's players are taught to live with this danger, and the fact that they have passing options at all times means it is very unlikely to lose the ball through anything other than pure defensive blunders. The downside is that if the defenders fuck up, and this is where both Laporte and Otamendi are liabilities (see Laporte vs Tottenham), then it is almost a sure goal conceded. But, again, this is about risk and reward. With no risk, there is no reward. Pep is a high risk, high reward manager. Valverde is a low risk, low reward manager.

4) Pep's players think ahead. When they orchestrate an attack they imagine what it would look like 3-4 passes in advance. Sometimes a player is not involved in the first 75% of the passing network, but appears in the last 25% with a key role. This is pre-planned. And above all, this is done with a lot of training hours. They do not make one pass at a time, but series passes ending where they want to and plan to get. When a passing cycle is terminated because of a certain reason, they will recycle possession and safety pass until they are ready for a new sequence and everyone is properly positioned. Every time, the plan of a passing sequence is to create a chance. Valverde's players for example will pass the ball in a seemingly open space, only to see it closed right away. They see the other team has an easy fix to a question they ask, but then after 2 mins they ask the same question. The same answer appears. And then again, and again.

5) Probably other things I'm missing right now.

Guardiola positional system is like a cinema lover who goes to the cinema with the ticket in his hand, popcorn and soda, knows where they will sit, what movie is coming, what's the run time, who stars in it and who directed the movie. Sure, sometimes the movie will turn out to be a bad one, but that's no problem. Most often than not, if you do your research and are prepared in advance, and you are smart and you know what you are doing, you will see great movies with this thorough approach.

Valverde's positional system is like a dude that goes to the cinema without having a clue if there is a good movie that day, or what time it begins, or any of the above details. He just goes on a whim, maybe he figures it out and finds something good to see. Or maybe not, and he goes and gets drunk in some bar instead. Sometimes, he gets lucky, he appears at the cinema and Dunkirk is about to begin in 15 mins and there are good seats available. Most of the time, the poorly prepared moviegoer will either see crap comedies or Disney movies or get drunk.

All the reasons above make a 60 - 40 ratio a poor one to block a Guardiola team in the middle. It won't be crowded enough to stop them from going through. So the defensive side will think they need more men in the center to block the passing combinations that Pep is famous for. So they go more extreme in their attempt to be ultra compact in the middle. And they will go 70-30, or even 75-25. And this is where a Pep team will start to seriously use the wings, by switching play. The logic is simple. If a position is ultra-crowded, and if the other team doesn't cheat by using more than 10 outfield players, then it means other areas (the wings) are more open than they should be. And they direct attacks there more and more. And with the right players there, usually fast ones (Messi, Robben, Sane, Sterling, Pedro etc.), you can do some serious damage. But until the defending team has exaggerated in their central coverage, they will not insist on the wings. Because wing play become very lucrative when there is space to use. No wonder many wingers are fast players that do well when they have space to run into.

So wing use is totally different from Guardiola to Valverde. Guardiola uses central combinations to create superiority and either break there or force defensive teams to go overly-compact and give him space in the wings. Valverde uses the wings because he can only create an attack wherever an opponent is giving space. Valverde doesn't have the tactical knowledge and the balls to alter his stiff positional system and thus create spaces in the middle. So he does the simple thing. Plays in the bit of space the other team gives him and hopes his star wing players can pull something off.
 
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kollegah

Senior Member
Arthur + Raki + 100 Mio should seal the deal for Neymar.

BUSI // FRENKIE // ROBERTO // VIDAL // SOME OTHER YOUNG PLAYER totally enough to occupy the midfield.

imagen NGM in attack, Frenkie Busi Vidal in midfield -> CL guarantuee
 

psychotsek

Member
I'm not saying that he is the best midfielder in the world or sth but he was our best midfielder last year. It's sad that he hasn't been able to play this year and that some may think he has to go to bring a spoiled son back.
 

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