Arthur

[serghei]

There is a tendency in this team to pass the ball to Messi and make him be the one to attempt the final ball, which is not bad necessarily, since he is the one who has by far the best final pass in the team. But this way of approaching the attacking phase has its limitations in CL, where teams block Messi to far greater success than medium or lower level La Liga sides.

And again, this is not only related to Arthur, but to the midfield dynamics on a global level, no matter who plays. Everyone likes to signal Arthur as the scapegoat, but the thing is with or without him playing, we face the same problems, and the game looks roughly the same.

Hence, the conclusion is fairly simple, we simply choose as a team to orchestrate almost all our attacks through Messi.

There is no like anymore so I had to qoute to say I completely agree. This is something I'm saying for many years, in this "system" noone can look good. I would like that all those who think otherwise rewatch the game and pause it everytime someone has the ball. Than take entire minute and try to figure out best way to pass it, you'll find no space, no movement at all and no real solutions. And in the game you have seconds.

That's exactly what happens. I do this a lot. Record games on TV, then rewatch it with pauses at random times to look at the positioning. And I'm bewildered at how low the movement around the ball carrier is. In other times, the team went alive every time someone got the ball in decent positions, moving quickly and efficiently to provide that player with good solutions on the ball, allowing that player to then quickly choose a solution. And we're talking about all kinds of solutions: final ball (sometimes), good first station pass in the near sectors, possibility to attempt a one-two, safety ball to recycle possession when pressed, longer balls to switch the play, and so on. Now nothing, only crap options most of the time. It's almost as if the only purpose is to pass it around until we get the ball to Messi, often in some crap deep positions.

Than take entire minute and try to figure out best way to pass it, you'll find no space, no movement at all and no real solutions.

You know what will happen, right? Most would say that pass is on but Arthur or Y didn't went for it because he is crap (lol), when that pass rarely works even on play station in FIFA or PES.

Efficient football is not putting players in crap positions and ask them to pull off magical passes out of their ass. It's about making sure the movement and cohesion is the best it can be, so the players pull off good passes with great consistency. That's how you create progression by playing a modern positional game. Not by attempting 15 passes with everyone hiding behind markers and maybe making 2 exceptional through balls, and giving the ball away in the other 13 situations.

 

[serghei]

If the player I am supposed to pass the ball is positioned in such a way that my chances of making the pass are very slim, a smart possession player doesn't go for the pass, but opts for a safer option, trusting that the system will give him a better chance, with better prospects of success the next time around. This is why pressing and counter-pressing is and was key for Pep's Barcelona and for every efficient possession team (pressing in 14-15 vs Bayern in the CL semi was outstanding for example). It gave us more leeway, the liberty to try more complicated passes, because the team would have options and would be willing to get the ball back very quickly in the inevitable cases where the complicated passes fall short. And that relentless press from Barcelona, and the 6 second rule, were so notorious around Europe because complicated passes fell short very often. And that's with the best midfield of all time at its peak.

In general if the press is good, you can be more adventurous. Because you can see that the opponent can't do damage when you lose the ball and their attacks die off quickly, like a small fire that is smothered very fast because everyone around it acts quickly to stop it. If the press is crap, or worse, if it is non-existent, and you're still adventurous (especially when the positioning is crap and doesn't warrant such "courage"), than you're a crap possession team, because you'd be putting up fires constantly that very few players are trying to put off. That's how possession football works. Keeping the ball is priority no1. Creating chances is a close 2nd normally or equally important. The gap between these two is as big as the quality of your defensive transition. The worse your defensive transition is, the more you will favor keeping the ball and the more extra cautious you'll be with your passing solutions. Defensive transition doesn't mean tackles in this case. It means simply going towards the opponent and at the same time blocking his best passing options. This is technically registered as an interception after a forced error from the opponent. The player registering the interception is rather random and not very important, because the approach is systematic, not based on individuality.

If you have great pressing, then you can keep 70% of the ball and try more complex passes, because you are well equipped to get it back. But if you have crap pressing and crap transitions (these two are deeply correlated), the only way you keep the ball and maintain control through possession is by dialing down on the risk you take with your passes. Meaning 5-2 chances, instead of 17-4, to give an example. And you accept the fact that a huge portion of your possession would be done for defensive purposes (again, because you lack a better weapon, which would be pressing). Pressing on defensive transition is there to allow me as a possession team to try more things in my attacking phase, because I know I can get the ball back before the opponent gets a scoring chance. That kind of confidence allow players to be more at ease with playing more daring passes.

Everything is tied together. You have elements which depend to one another. Movement is key for possession football to ensure progression by avoiding markers and making sure you connect with your teammates. Quality pressing is key for trying more complicated passes with low success rate, because pressing is the best way to get the ball back for a possession, technical side lacking solid, beast defenders (which you don't have because they are usually not very good technically). Good positioning is essential to make sure the ball circulates well from compartment to compartment. Approaching tactics in a position and space, not player oriented manner (for example, Messi in a worse position than Griezmann should not be passed to just because he is Messi - yet this happens all the time). Many many things which heavily influence the way we play, yet almost all are disregarded only for people to point fingers at X or Y in the team, usually the players people love to hate.

 

[Gnidrologist]

^Great and spot on analysis. Something that autistic people that don't understand football (the BBZ types) never get, because they are fixated on their like or dislike of particular players and nothing beyond that, which then manifests in cherry pick irrelevant statistics bits, because grasping the team tactics and seeing what works and what fails is teh hard.

 

[JohnN]

I agree with everything @Serghei said but I do see a problem in relation to Arthur. I rate Arthur as a possession oriented player. But he's is not progressing in terms of attacking initiative. I do agree that runs are kind of rare ( against parked busses they have always been rare ). But I see no attacking intent from him. No effort to make a play. Puig, of all people, DID try to make plays. Did run behind the defence. Did try one-twos. That is the mindset of an attacking midfielder that Artur will never develop. If he stays as the controlling CM, we NEED an Iniesta type of player to take risks and make plays. Him and FDJ both, cannot I initiate attacks. The only player that can (from our seniors) is Messi. That is why he drops deep to do it.

 

[Co0ter]

I agree with everything @Serghei said but I do see a problem in relation to Arthur. I rate Arthur as a possession oriented player. But he's is not progressing in terms of attacking initiative. I do agree that runs are kind of rare ( against parked busses they have always been rare ). But I see no attacking intent from him. No effort to make a play. Puig, of all people, DID try to make plays. Did run behind the defence. Did try one-twos. That is the mindset of an attacking midfielder that Artur will never develop. If he stays as the controlling CM, we NEED an Iniesta type of player to take risks and make plays. Him and FDJ both, cannot I initiate attacks. The only player that can (from our seniors) is Messi. That is why he drops deep to do it.

De Jong DM and Arthur as LCM/RCM is a great start, and I've always agreed the last player needs to be an attacking type. What I do not understand is the incredibly large group of people who are against Messi playing that RCM role, especially considering he is there half the time to begin with. He doesn't make runs down the wing anymore and he rarely stays out wide anyway so why play him is our attacking option there then play Vidal, De Jong, Arthur as the midfield etc. Put Messi as RCM, have Semedo play more defensively to cover Messi's lack of work rate. Play two wingers with pace who can cut in, take on defenders, are comfortable out wide and make runs. Dembele, Fati, Sancho type players...choose these players also based on their willingness to press when we lose the ball. Neymar is a douche but his pressing and tracking back was massively underrated.

Messi at RW AND dropping back to create makes us a worse team overall, in every aspect.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Sign DeBruyne please

 

[serghei]

Sign DeBruyne please

You'd get 50-60% of his level with City.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

You'd get 50-60% of his level with City.

Why so?

He would be still the best midfielder for us

 

[serghei]

Why so?

He would be still the best midfielder for us

What good does it do if he's the best midfielder if he can't play like one for us? Griezmann is also one of the best forwards in the world.

De Bruyne would slightly improve us, but won't change much overall. The same issues will still appear. We need a to be veteran free, and then we can talk. By that time De Bruyne is past it.

 

[malvolio]

What good does it do if he's the best midfielder if he can't play like one for us? Griezmann is also one of the best forwards in the world.

Says more about the current batch of under 30 forwards, than Griezmann's talent.

Same goes for talented midfielders.

 

[Sailor Mars]

The Guardiola-era Barca might have inspired a younger generation of midfielders who excel at keeping possession, shielding the ball, and making all these short lateral passes without developing any of other skills needed for midfielders.

Long-term it's difficult to see a successful Barca with a midfield featuring both De Jong and Arthur as starters.

 

[Messigician]

I can see why board want to sell him tbh.

 

[Porque]

He played bad. Every midfielder we have, has not played well in these last two matches- bar Vidal (45 minutes) and Puig (17 minutes) so it would be cruel to single out Arthur.

My opinion on him still stands. Great talent, would also be absolutely perfect for Serie A. If we were to sell him then A the fee must be good and B, we must get a replacement of similar age, potential but more tenacious and energy off the ball. Could that be Tonali, Bruno Guimaraes, Soumare? I don't know, I don't know. But I do know it is not Pjanic.

 

[BBZ8800]

The Guardiola-era Barca might have inspired a younger generation of midfielders who excel at keeping possession, shielding the ball, and making all these short lateral passes without developing any of other skills needed for midfielders

So true.
This is what Pep did to football.

Before Pep, Barca was let's say:
At 80% at everything.
We were not perfect in anything, but we were more like allrounders with lots of different skills.

Then Pep came and raised some parts of our play to a perfection, like possession, triangles and movement.
But he totally neglected some other parts of football like let's say corners, crosses, long balls, headers, long range shots.

And then fans who grew up in that era also have their brains wired towards Pep's skills.

With young footballers, if a player was aged 8-14 when Pep dominated, it is possible that his learning process was heavily influenced by a type of football which worked in that moment.

Just like Pep's football, Arthur's style of play is extremely one-dimensional.
Perfect in some areas like possession, technique, press resistance.
And almost non-existant in other areas.

With Arthur, it is clear that his growing up and football development were heavily influenced by Pep's Barca.

The problem is:
1. He developed only some skills
2. And Pep's Barca stopped working 10 years ago and football moved into a different direction

For Arthur's fans, my personal estimation is = he won't change. He is too old to drastically change his footballing views.
Arthur will never learn how to be creative because he doesn't have that skill.
The same as how Rakitic will never play a pure tiki-taka triangles or how Dembele will never improve his IQ.

Players can improve tactical skills like defending, positioning, reading of the game.
It is hard to change WHO THEY ARE as footballers.
Neymar will never stop doing stupid tricks.
Because it is who he is deep down.
Lucho managed to change him, to play faster and more efficient.
But it lasted only for 12 Months.
He soon returned to his default self, like everyone.

Arthur is a guy who grew up watching videos from 4-6-0 era of football with 90% of possession and this is exactly how he plays.

 

[Gaudi]

You'd get 50-60% of his level with City.

Exactly, whoever we buy won't work, FDJ look meh, Griez look bad, every time we buy someone we start thinkig about better option, but reality is noone looks good in static, no movement system.