Arturo Vidal

[KingMessi]

What's this about 5 coaches same outcomes?

We've played bad (didn't score) in away CL quarter/semifinal games when we were eliminated in 6 of the last 7 seasons with only exception being treble season.

2011/12 - 1/2 final Chelsea 1-0 (coach: Pep)
2012/13 - 1/2 final Bayern 3-0 (Tito)
2013/14 - 1/4 final Atletico 1-0 (Tata)
2015/16 - 1/4 final Atletico 2-0 (Lucho)
2016/17 - 1/4 final Juve 3-0 (Lucho)
2017/18 - 1/4 final Roma 3-0 (EV)

We've had 5 different coaches in those games. Yes, they've made their own share of mistakes and we've played better in some games than the others but I think it's fair to say our senior players who have been part of the team in most if not all of those games (Messi, Busi, Pique, Alba,...) should also take their responsibility for that. (But people will continue to blame stupid coaches or fringe players like Gomes or Paulinho who have played 10 or 15 minutes in those games instead of saying something bad about fan favourites). And it's clear they don't lack quality or experience to win the CL so it has to be their mentality.

Here you go.

 

[Birdy]

Busquets, Coutinho, Arthur, Rakitic, Vidal, Roberto is arguably the best midfield in the world. atleast in terms of depth.

real have modric, kroos, isco, kovacic, casemiro, ceballos (LOL)

no excuses for valverde. squad is loaded to compete on all 3 fronts. deepest Barca squad since 2011.

Reality check:
Busquets is the best static no6 passer in the world, i will give you that. But, unless complemented with the right kind of players to support him, his weaknesses can get heavily exposed.
Arthur was just signed. He has never played in Europe. Great potential, but listing him already as part of the 'best midfield' is at least delusional..
Roberto has played competitively only as a RB the last two years. He was not trusted to play in the md by several coaches.
Coutinho is going to play out wide on the left cutting in. Don't count him as a md, unless you are implying a different argument.
Rakitic is in steady decline since 2016. In what other top team's md Rakitic would start? Would he start at City's, Liverpool's, Chelsea's, Utd's, Bayern's, RM's, Juve's?? Let me answer it for you: NO, he wouldn't. I bet he wouldn't even start at Tottenham ahead of Dier-Alli-Eriksen
Vidal is 31 and is being bought because he is coming cheap to do what Paulinho did last year. Certain traits are wanted, he is not even going to be a starter.

How from the above picture you make that EV has no excuses now is beyond me..
'No excuses' would have been buying Pogba and Thiago for EV to fill in the holes of md, not even failing to get De Jong and then disguising that with Vidal..
Let alone the lack of depth upfront and the questionable quality at the back. It seems to me that if Vidal is the last signing of this summer, EV will have to become an alchemist again to find 'combinations' that can masquerade the lack of quality in certain departments of the squad.

 

[soul24rage]

the thing we lacked is that belief that we can score in a game when we are down a goal or more in that match. Whenever we were a goal down, we seem to lack this spark or fight during that match. If we lose the match in the first leg, we usually have that fight and intensity in the second leg although few matches were turned around. But in the first leg, we seem to always concede a goal and we lose the fight to score a goal IN THAT match.

 

[BBZ8800]

Opponents score one goal...the team begins to panic
Opponents score second goal...heads go down everyone looks hopeless
Opponents score the third goal...flatline

I have been watching this match over and over for 10 years in a row.
This is not only Roma.

Open any match in the last 10 years when we were losing in a KO matches (except Psg and Milan).
Bayern, Atletico, Atletico, Juve, Roma.

Does this match from a few years ago look exactly the same as recent matches against Psg, Juve and Roma?
We can't create shit.
We are outplayed like and outmuscled like children.
We can't create anything.
And even after conceded goals, we play the same.

Please guys, don't reply: we don't have a controller. This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay deeper:

 

[Devils]

So Suarez had character then, but not now. Neymar a character guy now? He was there in 16 when we lost to Juve. The guys back then were serial winners, but somehow the same guys now are serial losers?

Again, you cannot switch character on and off like all you are suggesting. A player with character either has it or doesn't.

What you say is lack of character that lead to poor loses, is really poor team management both in squad renewal and squad management. Players got old and were not replaced; replacements were misguided and just flat out didn't work; and coaching has been very lacking these past 3 seasons.

These things make the difference.

Yes Suarez may have the same character but he's not backing it up on the pitch, due to decline or fitness issues. Prime Suarez would press opposition like crazy and he'd be clawing for victory like his life depended on it. Nowadays he's still vocal and yelling on the pitch, but physically not the same level.

What you are saying is that this is all down to poor management and squad planning, which I agree plays part in the team morale and character.

But let's be honest, Barca's team on paper were still better or at least on par with Atletico and Juve and certainly better than Roma.

Let me ask you, why is it that only Barca, out of every other top team in Europe, can't seem to go down fighting in their CL ties? Why is it that when they go up against physically strong, aggressive, pressing and motivated team that refuse to let Barca play their football that Barca suddenly seems shell-shocked and it seems the entire teams black out?

I have never seen Real, Bayern, Atletico, Juventus etc...go down like that in CL elimination ties. Sure, I see those teams lose, but I never see them have systematic collapse like Barca has in the CL in recent years. They may lose, but they go down fighting...why is it Barca that only seem to suffer from systematic collapse?

 

[Joan]

Character + Tactical Accumen + Adapatability

Lucho didn't have the third. When his gameplan was figured out, it all went tits up.

You'd make an individual case for each CL exit from the list and wouldn't doubt squad's fighting spirit? That's fair, I wouldn't.

 

[KingMessi]

@BBZ

That screams lack of squad planning and tactical flexibility. Not lack of character. FFS.

The problem is systemic. It's not a matter of character.

 

[KingMessi]

You'd make an individual case for each CL exit from the list and wouldn't doubt squad's fighting spirit? That's fair, I wouldn't.

Yes, I would. It's never as simple as: "oh we didn't have x..."

 

[Sumlit]

We've played bad (didn't score) in away CL quarter/semifinal games when we were eliminated in 6 of the last 7 seasons with only exception being treble season.

2011/12 - 1/2 final Chelsea 1-0 (coach: Pep)
2012/13 - 1/2 final Bayern 3-0 (Tito)
2013/14 - 1/4 final Atletico 1-0 (Tata)
2015/16 - 1/4 final Atletico 2-0 (Lucho)
2016/17 - 1/4 final Juve 3-0 (Lucho)
2017/18 - 1/4 final Roma 3-0 (EV)

We've had 5 different coaches in those games. Yes, they've made their own share of mistakes and we've played better in some games than the others but I think it's fair to say our senior players who have been part of the team in most if not all of those games (Messi, Busi, Pique, Alba,...) should also take their responsibility for that. (But people will continue to blame stupid coaches or fringe players like Gomes or Paulinho who have played 10 or 15 minutes in those games instead of saying something bad about fan favourites). And it's clear they don't lack quality or experience to win the CL so it has to be their mentality.

Here you go.

That's kind of a simplistic view. Loses happen for many reasons. Same players who lost those games also won Trebles, UCLs, and Ligas.

 

[KingMessi]

That's kind of a simplistic view. Loses happen for many reasons. Same players who lost those games also won Trebles, UCLs, and Ligas.

My point exactly.

 

[Joan]

Yes, I would. It's never as simple as: "oh we didn't have x..."

Completely agree. But that's exactly what you do. 'oh we didn't have a coach with character' - Valverde, 'oh, we didn't have an adaptable coach' - Lucho etc.

Saying we're lacking fighting spirit is not simplifying, it's recognizing a pattern. Of course each match has to be discussed on its own, but some patterns are there.

Lack of fighting spirit, no plan B, lack of versatility, strong, physical opponents etc. Individual mistakes aside.

 

[jairzinho]

I think the character they talk about translates more to cojones and aggression. Not necessarily character in the English sense of the word.

 

[KingMessi]

Completely agree. But that's exactly what you do. 'oh we didn't have a coach with character' - Valverde, 'oh, we didn't have an adaptable coach' - Lucho etc.

Saying we're lacking fighting spirit is not simplifying, it's recognizing a pattern. Of course each match has to be discussed on its own, but some patterns are there.

Lack of fighting spirit, no plan B, lack of versatility, strong, physical opponents etc. Individual mistakes aside.

Even then. Many patterns are at play.

 

[KingMessi]

I think the character they talk about translates more to cojones and aggression. Not necessarily character in the English sense of the word.

Motivation, hunger, desire, mentality, etc.

 

[Sumlit]

Yes Suarez may have the same character but he's not backing it up on the pitch, due to decline or fitness issues. Prime Suarez would press opposition like crazy and he'd be clawing for victory like his life depended on it. Nowadays he's still vocal and yelling on the pitch, but physically not the same level.

What you are saying is that this is all down to poor management and squad planning, which I agree plays part in the team morale and character.

But let's be honest, Barca's team on paper were still better or at least on par with Atletico and Juve and certainly better than Roma.

Let me ask you, why is it that only Barca, out of every other top team in Europe, can't seem to go down fighting in their CL ties? Why is it that when they go up against physically strong, aggressive, pressing and motivated team that refuse to let Barca play their football that Barca suddenly seems shell-shocked and it seems the entire teams black out?

I have never seen Real, Bayern, Atletico, Juventus etc...go down like that in CL elimination ties. Sure, I see those teams lose, but I never see them have systematic collapse like Barca has in the CL in recent years. They may lose, but they go down fighting...why is it Barca that only seem to suffer from systematic collapse?

Decline and fitness is not character though. You're backing up my point.

The best team on paper is not the one that wins always. There are tactics in sports. Teams plan to neutralize opponents strengths and enhanced theirs. Good guidance and management is required.

Let me ask you, why is it that only Barca, out of every other top team in Europe, can't seem to go down fighting in their CL ties? Why is it that when they go up against physically strong, aggressive, pressing and motivated team that refuse to let Barca play their football that Barca suddenly seems shell-shocked and it seems the entire teams black out?

This is not a Barca thing.

Firstly Barca lose 3-2 to Atletico in 16. Not a collapse.
Secondly, they lost to Juve 3-0 agg. in 17, after coming back 6-1 vs PSG. Collapse? Juve lost final 4-1 to RM, did they collapse as well? Bayern lost 6-3 agg. to RM same year. Collapse?
This season, Barca shit the bed vs Roma, but Liverpool beat City 5-1, collapse? Liverpool lost 3-1 final vs RM, collapse?

Think you're being too dramatic with the squad. We've all seen the issue with player signings and bad coaching coming. We don't need to go looking for extra mythical reasons when we've got tangible ones in hand.