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Sumlit
San Claudio Bravo
Getting a CF does not mean Messi has to move to the wings. He could very well thrive playing behind the CF and utilizing all the created space that was vacated by the CF dragging the marks of the CBs.
In fact, you can play Messi and Neymar closer together in the middle and have them terrorize midfielders with the security blanket of a target infront.
Perdo and Alexis losing space and playing time is a very weak argument as well. The team would be better served if both these players lose space and playing time in the team, if said space and playing time is given to better and more productive players.
Finally, your argument completely loses any potency when you mention someone like Chicharito. Not only is this guy just about the worse fit for a forward player in a Barca system, but he does not have nowhere near the talent and technical ability to play for this team. You might as well play Pique as a CF instead.
The Observer
New member
He has a contract until 2017. No chance. More likely that Madrid will get him. A swap for Isco probably who doesn't fit Madrid's system and whom they have only bought for that reason.
Mythical Revolution
New member
That was actually my argument, by playing Messi & Neymar in the center they can either play side-by-side or in tandem with one acting as a CF, like this:
So you don't really need another CF. In fact, I fail to see how you can fit 3 players in the center. Sure, "you can play Messi and Neymar closer together in the middle" but all you've done is restrict the movement of your 2 best forwards while also making them less of a goal threat. While I agree that having a pure CF can give us a formidable tactical weapon, it only makes sense if you're willing to field Messi & Neymar on the wings which is not gonna happen every week.
I think you misunderstood. All I was saying was that if you want to play Messi & Neymar in the center then there's no place for any other player; not Alexis or Pedro and certainly not Lewa or Aguero.
An argument that has zero potency is an unsubstantiated argument –*these 3 sentences may serve as an example. I remember Messi saying that if he had to pick 1 player from MUTD (that was ahead of the CL Final) to play for Barca, it would be Chicha (Source=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/710965-manchester-uniteds-javier-hernandez-lionel-messis-future-teammate-at-barca). No one is saying that Chicha is better than Lewa or Aguero, but if we're looking for a realistic option who knows how to score and can contribute to our pressing game then IMO he should be at or near the top of your list.
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Sumlit
San Claudio Bravo
In that video you can already see the potential issues of fielding both Messi and Neymar as the more advanced forwards/central tandem. When they begin to combine, they have 5 players all over them. This time it worked and it was Valencia. Against tougher more disciplined opponents, a 5 vs 2 in that area will not be nearly as effective, even if the 2 is Messi and Neymar.
With a CF in front, all the sudden 2 of those 5 defenders (the 2 CBs) are occupied, and a 5v2 now turned into a 3v2 in which Messi and Neymar can triangulate easier and carve the defense up to either set up each other, or the CF.
Playing both Messi and Neymar closer to the middle does not restrict their movement but allows them more freedom, and does not make them less of a goal threat but increases their lanes with which to attack, pass and dribble. Keep in mind that playing them this way does not anchor them to the position, they gain a more central starting point with which to roam to each side and create confusion.
You can play with 3 players in the center by dropping both Neymar and Messi deeper and more centrally. You create a triangle with Neymar and Messi as the base, the CF the attacking tip. The team would play more like Guardiola's Bayern in a 4-1-4-1 formation.
I misunderstood your Alexis and Pedro comment, I apologize.
Concerning Chicharito, he is just simply a bad option every way you look at it. That Messi likes him means very little. He does not dribble, he does not play linkup, he does not create, he cannot move to the wings. He is not a physical player. He is not a speed player. He is a poacher, and a limited one at that. He is just about as average a player as you can find.
I would not sit down Alexis in lieu of Chicharito, not in a million years.
With a CF in front, all the sudden 2 of those 5 defenders (the 2 CBs) are occupied, and a 5v2 now turned into a 3v2 in which Messi and Neymar can triangulate easier and carve the defense up to either set up each other, or the CF.
Playing both Messi and Neymar closer to the middle does not restrict their movement but allows them more freedom, and does not make them less of a goal threat but increases their lanes with which to attack, pass and dribble. Keep in mind that playing them this way does not anchor them to the position, they gain a more central starting point with which to roam to each side and create confusion.
You can play with 3 players in the center by dropping both Neymar and Messi deeper and more centrally. You create a triangle with Neymar and Messi as the base, the CF the attacking tip. The team would play more like Guardiola's Bayern in a 4-1-4-1 formation.
I misunderstood your Alexis and Pedro comment, I apologize.
Concerning Chicharito, he is just simply a bad option every way you look at it. That Messi likes him means very little. He does not dribble, he does not play linkup, he does not create, he cannot move to the wings. He is not a physical player. He is not a speed player. He is a poacher, and a limited one at that. He is just about as average a player as you can find.
I would not sit down Alexis in lieu of Chicharito, not in a million years.
lostchild
New member
i really wish we'll count on our youngsters honestly.
we already see how good Bartra is playing and i remember just few months ago when he didnt get that much of a "stable" chance where people actually started claiming he's awful and we should sell him or loan him etc... and now he actually should be the first choice in the starting 11 imo.. at least considering his last performances..
the same could be with Muniesa .. i mean.. i have no idea how good he can be.. of course he may be awful.. but ffs give him a chance before going off to buy another shit Dmytro Chygrynskiy .. im getting sick of these moronic 20m purchases ..
also Montoya giving some nice performances.. even on the left side.
the same could be said about the purchase of Alex Song while you have a somewhat promising 18 year old Sergi Samper in Barca B..
Song rarely plays anyways.. and when he does, he's usually average.. nothing amazing.. so why not just use a younger player who knows the game style and the approach ? and may actually be our future DM ?
and what about Deulofeu ? ok so we extended Alexis' contract, we also have Pedro, Tello (who is already showing signs off giving up), Neymar, Messi.. not to mention Bojan who is also still on loan (?)
but sure
lets just buy another forward.. who is "willing to sit on the bench" ? meaning less chance for Deulofeu to ever breaking in .. or any other youngster like Dongou?
i just hope that we dont accidentally end up buying a CAM for some weird reason, because for some reason i can see that happening.. i dont know why.
we already see how good Bartra is playing and i remember just few months ago when he didnt get that much of a "stable" chance where people actually started claiming he's awful and we should sell him or loan him etc... and now he actually should be the first choice in the starting 11 imo.. at least considering his last performances..
the same could be with Muniesa .. i mean.. i have no idea how good he can be.. of course he may be awful.. but ffs give him a chance before going off to buy another shit Dmytro Chygrynskiy .. im getting sick of these moronic 20m purchases ..
also Montoya giving some nice performances.. even on the left side.
the same could be said about the purchase of Alex Song while you have a somewhat promising 18 year old Sergi Samper in Barca B..
Song rarely plays anyways.. and when he does, he's usually average.. nothing amazing.. so why not just use a younger player who knows the game style and the approach ? and may actually be our future DM ?
and what about Deulofeu ? ok so we extended Alexis' contract, we also have Pedro, Tello (who is already showing signs off giving up), Neymar, Messi.. not to mention Bojan who is also still on loan (?)
but sure
lets just buy another forward.. who is "willing to sit on the bench" ? meaning less chance for Deulofeu to ever breaking in .. or any other youngster like Dongou?
i just hope that we dont accidentally end up buying a CAM for some weird reason, because for some reason i can see that happening.. i dont know why.
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lostchild
New member
you are right
i was just referring to the fact that he wont even get the chance because now we have Song waiting in the bench as a back-up, a thing should be done by any good/promising/interesting youngster... and i bet we had some besides Samper. and if not, thats sad.
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
Hmm... If Samper is good enough then I can guarantee you that he will get a chance!
The thing with Song is that he brings something different than Busi and Samper. Physicality.
F
Flavia
Guest
Muniesa is not a Barça play anymore. He went as a free sign to Stoke city.
Mythical Revolution
New member
I think there's not much disagreement between us about the end point, it's on how do we get there that we disagree.
The problem with fielding a CF while playing Messi & Neymar in the center are twofold:
1) It stifles Messi & Neymar's creativity
You disagree. But here's the thing, Guardiola's 4-1-4-1 would have Neymar playing on the left and Messi on the right. That’s no different from Neymar’s current position or Messi’s old one. So you’re actually backing my argument by demonstrating that you can’t field 3 attackers all in the center. There’s a reason why Guardiola moved Messi’s from his default position on the right after all. If you’re still unconvinced, one way to conceptualize it would be to take the Valencia move and think how it would work if we had Neymar, Messi & another CF. What you find is that you basically have 2 possible formation:
1) the CF is in front, Messi & Neymar are in the back
2) The CF & Neymar are in front, Messi is in the back
If (1) is the case that move would’ve probably not been executed in the first place because very few CF have Neymar’s technical ability. If (2) is the case, then there would be no space for Messi to run into because he would’ve had 2 players in front of him. Now, that’s an N of 1 but it’s paradigmatic of what I’m trying to say.
2)Which player are you gonna take out to field a CF
With Neymar & Messi in the center, you can play a 4-1-3-2 or a 4-2-2-2 so you can either play Fabregas who can then supply Messi or Neymar with goalscoring chances to finish instead of having Messir or Neymar creating chances for a CF who is not as good a finisher – without sacrificing Xavi or Iniesta or forcing them to play out of position; or you can play a double pivot, something that can be useful in tough away CL games.
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Sumlit
San Claudio Bravo
All 3 players don't have to be in the same position at the same time. If Barca get a CF, it would obviously be one that has good movement and knows how to move around the pitch to create space for others. In the video you posted, a CF can easily be near the left or right side of the box while Neymar and Messi make that play, and he would only have given them more space by dragging defenders away.
If you watch both Messi and Neymar play, they like to grab balls outside the box and run at defenders. By them being the most advanced players in this formation, they have to get through too many players when they attempt to do this. This is why when Barca face a stout defending team, Messi's efficiency is lessened. He simply needs to get by too many players. Having a CF in front does not stop Messi's or Neymar's normal style of game. They can still grab the ball outside the box and run at defenders just the same. However now, 2 would be defenders they had to get through are virtually out of the play because they must keep tight to the CF or risk him gaining their back and scoring. This is the importance of a CF.
For an example of what I'm saying, look at Argentina. Argentina have a front 4 of Higuain, Aguero, Messi and di Maria. Higuain buys a TON of space for both Messi and Aguero to operate in front of the box, by dragging the marks of the opposition's CBs. This results in plenty of freedom for Messi and di Maria to link up, and for Messi and Aguero to make dribbling runs into the box. When defenders key on them, they simply play a through ball to Higuain for a shot on goal. Both Messi and Higuain have scored a lot of goals this way.
I completely disagree with your opinion that having a CF would stifle Messi's and Neymar creativity. Both of them play with target man CF in their national teams, and it only helps them get a ton more space to make their amazing runs.
Playing a 4-1-4-1 does not make them play on the wings. They would play more towards each wing, but by dropping deeper, they can still stay centrally, interchange positions with each other and the CF, and exploit the space each other creates.
Here I drew this just now. Pardon me
I'm no artist.
Mythical Revolution
New member
Yes, but if he's at the right or left side he won't be dragging any defenders with him, he will just get tagged by a fullback. Besides by moving him away from the center, you're almost nullifying his threat; so the CF doesn't really contribute anything to this play other than adding traffic. The other point I will add is that it's much harder to coordinate between 3 players instead of 2, and when you have the CF facing the goal you're forcing Messi/Neymar to track his movement rather than make their own moves, which can be limiting in some cases. Now,
Well, if Messi or Neymar is playing in the CF position then he has to get past even fewer players than if he was playing behind a CF. See, the thing is we both agree that a CF can be very effective for creating space. The way I see it, with Messi & Neymar spearheading the attack 1 of them can act as a CF to draw the CB leaving space for the player carrying the ball or you can just past it to them if they're already in an advanced position. That's basically what you said, but notice that in your scenario 1 player is carrying the ball, the other is drawing defenders away from him; the 3rd player is basically uninvolved. So why field another CF who is arguably not as good a finisher as either Messi or Neymar (potential wise) when you can field an AM (Fabregas) who can actually supply the deadly pass to them.
I don't watch Brazil/Argentina that often so I'll have to take your word for it, but here again if they're so effective because they have a CF playing upfront then all you need is to play Messi & Neymar in the center and you'll end up with an even better CF. I'll say this though, I don't think that playing with a CF in front of N&M is bad idea; in fact I think it can be a very effective tactical weapon that we're currently lacking –*but to play it effectively you have to place N&M out wide which makes it more of a tactical formation because N&M are not playing in their ideal position.
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