Barça's Transfers and Rumors

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Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
Yes, but if he's at the right or left side he won't be dragging any defenders with him, he will just get tagged by a fullback. Besides by moving him away from the center, you're almost nullifying his threat; so the CF doesn't really contribute anything to this play other than adding traffic. The other point I will add is that it's much harder to coordinate between 3 players instead of 2, and when you have the CF facing the goal you're forcing Messi/Neymar to track his movement rather than make their own moves, which can be limiting in some cases. Now,

No, because he does not drift entirely to the wing, he remains in the box, just the the edges. He drags the mark of at least 1 CB. It does not nullify the CF because he is still in striking range, while at the same time, creating space for other players. This is how CFs play.
You don't need to coordinate 3 players. On the build-up play, 2 players build up, the third moves in space to get position or open space. Barca forwards play this way, but they do it in wider positions because they are wingers. A CF knows how to move centrally.


Well, if Messi or Neymar is playing in the CF position then he has to get past even fewer players than if he was playing behind a CF. See, the thing is we both agree that a CF can be very effective for creating space. The way I see it, with Messi & Neymar spearheading the attack 1 of them can act as a CF to draw the CB leaving space for the player carrying the ball or you can just past it to them if they're already in an advanced position. That's basically what you said, but notice that in your scenario 1 player is carrying the ball, the other is drawing defenders away from him; the 3rd player is basically uninvolved. So why field another CF who is arguably not as good a finisher as either Messi or Neymar (potential wise) when you can field an AM (Fabregas) who can actually supply the deadly pass to them.

You're not seeing the point. If Messi is the CF dragging marks, then Neymar has no link-up partner. The moment Messi moves to link-up, he drags marks into the combination play, putting both of them in a disadvantage. In my scenario the 3rd player is not uninvolved, he is serving the purpose of looking for position and dragging marks. This, again, is what CF do.
The whole idea of adding a CF is to give more space, more prominence, more freedom to the Messi and Neymar duo, while giving them a target point to unload assists. The CF will also be a natural scorer, which helps the team. You can still play Fabregas regardless, but now he has 3 targets instead of 2 highly marked ones.


I don't watch Brazil/Argentina that often so I'll have to take your word for it, but here again if they're so effective because they have a CF playing upfront then all you need is to play Messi & Neymar in the center and you'll end up with an even better CF. I'll say this though, I don't think that playing with a CF in front of N&M is bad idea; in fact I think it can be a very effective tactical weapon that we're currently lacking –*but to play it effectively you have to place N&M out wide which makes it more of a tactical formation because N&M are not playing in their ideal position.

No. The reason they are effective is because their respective CFs buy space for them. If you're going to ask one of them to be a CF to drag defenders for the other, you are handicapping one to a reduced role, and the other with a lack of partner. Also, while Messi can play as a CF because he is strong despite his size, Neymar cannot play a CF. So when he is doing the CF role, he will be ineffective.
 
No, because he does not drift entirely to the wing, he remains in the box, just the the edges. He drags the mark of at least 1 CB. It does not nullify the CF because he is still in striking range, while at the same time, creating space for other players. This is how CFs play.
You don't need to coordinate 3 players. On the build-up play, 2 players build up, the third moves in space to get position or open space. Barca forwards play this way, but they do it in wider positions because they are wingers. A CF knows how to move centrally.
I had the same scenario in mind, but still if the CF drifts wide he doesn't drag anybody because the fullback can just mark him without the risk of being exposed since Neymar & Messi are already in the center. So the most effective way to do this would be to have N&M play out wide, this way the fullbacks are already occupied so the CB has no choice but to track the CF leaving space for the winger on the opposite side to get into or for the other winger to cut in. But as I said, that's no different from Messi old position and there's a reason why he no longer plays there anymore.



You're not seeing the point. If Messi is the CF dragging marks, then Neymar has no link-up partner. The moment Messi moves to link-up, he drags marks into the combination play, putting both of them in a disadvantage. In my scenario the 3rd player is not uninvolved, he is serving the purpose of looking for position and dragging marks. This, again, is what CF do.The whole idea of adding a CF is to give more space, more prominence, more freedom to the Messi and Neymar duo, while giving them a target point to unload assists. The CF will also be a natural scorer, which helps the team. You can still play Fabregas regardless, but now he has 3 targets instead of 2 highly marked ones.
The same point I just made also applies here. The CF doesn't drag anyone with him if all your attacker are in the center, because the fullback can just take care of that. Now since you can't play with 12 players on the pitch playing Fabregas means sacrificing either Xavi or Iniesta, so you end up loosing something. The other point to consider is that if N&M are playing behind a CF then they have to pass 2 lines of defense instead of just 1 and here the CF is not much help in creating space because he doesn't drag anybody.

No. The reason they are effective is because their respective CFs buy space for them. If you're going to ask one of them to be a CF to drag defenders for the other, you are handicapping one to a reduced role, and the other with a lack of partner. Also, while Messi can play as a CF because he is strong despite his size, Neymar cannot play a CF. So when he is doing the CF role, he will be ineffective.
The most effective way for a CF to buy space for N&M would be to have N&M play out wide; making N&M less effective. In the Valencia clip, Neymar was in the CF position; so what he & Messi have to offer whether they're playing a CF or in the hole is much more than what a traditional CF/Winger/AM can offer and that's why Messi was moved to the center even though he could've stayed on the right to play behind a CF while given more freedom. The reason being that with a CF, M&N movement become much more predictable because they have to track the CF's movement whereas without a CF they have more freedom in terms of space (yes, because there's only 2 players) and movement making them more unpredictable and hence more effective.
 

Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
I had the same scenario in mind, but still if the CF drifts wide he doesn't drag anybody because the fullback can just mark him without the risk of being exposed since Neymar & Messi are already in the center. So the most effective way to do this would be to have N&M play out wide, this way the fullbacks are already occupied so the CB has no choice but to track the CF leaving space for the winger on the opposite side to get into or for the other winger to cut in. But as I said, that's no different from Messi old position and there's a reason why he no longer plays there anymore.

No, the fullback cannot completely key on the CF because he has to cover the wing from the attack of our fullbacks bombing up the wing to provide width. The CF does not need to move all the way out to the wing, just run towards the edge of the box, that still keeps him in striking distances thus requiring at least 1 CB to stay close, but still provides space by unclogging the middle.

Look at this goal. Notice how when Messi receives the ball, he has 1 midfielder and 1 centerback on him. Higuain drops a little back to serve as a dump off, collects marks, the unloads back to Messi and proceeds to make a run, effectively dragging the CB that originally came out to mark Messi.

The same point I just made also applies here. The CF doesn't drag anyone with him if all your attacker are in the center, because the fullback can just take care of that. Now since you can't play with 12 players on the pitch playing Fabregas means sacrificing either Xavi or Iniesta, so you end up loosing something. The other point to consider is that if N&M are playing behind a CF then they have to pass 2 lines of defense instead of just 1 and here the CF is not much help in creating space because he doesn't drag anybody.

Again, you cannot defend a CF with 1 fullback, that is a recipe for disaster because you can just bomb your own fullback forward and create a 2v1 missmatch. If the CF moves to the side of the box, he will inevitable drag a marker with him, and since the CF is playing in the middle constantly, CBs are programmed to cover CF, one of them will always attempt to stay close to the CF. This is how CFs and CBs operate.
As to the other part, playing Cesc, Iniesta and Xavi together with Messi and Neymar up front is not a productive lineup and would inevitably push Cesc to the center as a false 9, and both Messi and Neymar to the wings. It's always going to be an either or scenario with Cesc and Iniesta, regardless of bringing a CF or not.

The most effective way for a CF to buy space for N&M would be to have N&M play out wide; making N&M less effective. In the Valencia clip, Neymar was in the CF position; so what he & Messi have to offer whether they're playing a CF or in the hole is much more than what a traditional CF/Winger/AM can offer and that's why Messi was moved to the center even though he could've stayed on the right to play behind a CF while given more freedom. The reason being that with a CF, M&N movement become much more predictable because they have to track the CF's movement whereas without a CF they have more freedom in terms of space (yes, because there's only 2 players) and movement making them more unpredictable and hence more effective.

I tell you again, playing a CF does not require pushing them to the wings. This is a fallacy. Argentina play with not one, but 2 forwards in Higuain and Aguero, yet Messi does not play in the wings.
In the Valencia video Neymar was not acting as a CF. He initiated the play from the wing and just stayed centrally. He did not drag any marks, in fact, it was Messi who dragged the marks from Neymar from his deeper position after the pass. If Messi had a CF to his right when Neymar made that run from the wing, the CB would not have rushed to mark Messi after the pass from Iniesta, and Messi would have had a lot of freedom to dribble on, or lay off a pass.
 
No, the fullback cannot completely key on the CF because he has to cover the wing from the attack of our fullbacks bombing up the wing to provide width. The CF does not need to move all the way out to the wing, just run towards the edge of the box, that still keeps him in striking distances thus requiring at least 1 CB to stay close, but still provides space by unclogging the middle.

Look at this goal. Notice how when Messi receives the ball, he has 1 midfielder and 1 centerback on him. Higuain drops a little back to serve as a dump off, collects marks, the unloads back to Messi and proceeds to make a run, effectively dragging the CB that originally came out to mark Messi.
.
But what about Aguero? My argument is not that a CF is a bad, it's that you can get the same result with Messi & Neymar without the need of a CF. Replace Higuain with Neymar and you end up with the same result. So the question is not whether Higuain was instrumental in making that goal happen; it's whether Aguero was equally instrumental and if you look at the video you'll see that RB effectively closed rank and was marking him. Sure, if a fullback was on the left that would've been a different story; but by the time the fullback gets into an advanced position that move would've been over anyway so you have to assume that the fullback was already there with no one tracking him down, which is not gonna happen if a team is parking the bus. Now, think about what would happen if instead of Aguero you had an extra midfielder and let's say the other team is playing a 4-3-3 with a double pivot. If as you say 1 CB and 1 DM is marking Messi you end up with 1 DM + 1 CM/AM vs Xavi + Iniesta + Fabregas; that means that double marking Messi is no longer a feasible option because 1 of your midfielders is basically unmarked so either you mark him in which case Messi only has to deal with 1 marker or you let the unmarked midfielder carry the ball and wait for Messi & Neymar to make a run – like this (6:25);
& that's not even a good example because here you didn't have numerical superiority.



Again, you cannot defend a CF with 1 fullback, that is a recipe for disaster because you can just bomb your own fullback forward and create a 2v1 missmatch. If the CF moves to the side of the box, he will inevitable drag a marker with him, and since the CF is playing in the middle constantly, CBs are programmed to cover CF, one of them will always attempt to stay close to the CF. This is how CFs and CBs operate.
As to the other part, playing Cesc, Iniesta and Xavi together with Messi and Neymar up front is not a productive lineup and would inevitably push Cesc to the center as a false 9, and both Messi and Neymar to the wings. It's always going to be an either or scenario with Cesc and Iniesta, regardless of bringing a CF or not..
I think I answered that in the first part. As for Fabregas, the reason it didn't work is because you only had 1 player (Messi) who could play out wide and in the center. With 2 players who have that ability, you can have Messi & Neymar spearhead the attack, play Iniesta in his natural position and play Fab as an AM.


I tell you again, playing a CF does not require pushing them to the wings. This is a fallacy. Argentina play with not one, but 2 forwards in Higuain and Aguero, yet Messi does not play in the wings.
In the Valencia video Neymar was not acting as a CF. He initiated the play from the wing and just stayed centrally. He did not drag any marks, in fact, it was Messi who dragged the marks from Neymar from his deeper position after the pass. If Messi had a CF to his right when Neymar made that run from the wing, the CB would not have rushed to mark Messi after the pass from Iniesta, and Messi would have had a lot of freedom to dribble on, or lay off a pass.
When Neymar lays the pass to Messi in the Valencia clip his main obstacle is getting past the 2 midfielders & the CB who was marking Neymar –*not the free CB on the right who only applies pressure. So, yes if another CF was there he probably wouldn't have rushed on Messi; but if you had an extra midfielders Messi would've probably had to get past 1 midfielder & 1 CB. So at the end of the day it's a tradeoff, but one that I think is worth having.
 
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Xavinho

New member
What are you talking about?
I'm asking what you are talking about, and why you think Xavi would choose players based on something other than merit if he one day became our coach.
It seems strange to make a comment like that in response to a predictable statement to the press about a friend and teammate being linked to the club
 

Cule4life

The Culest
I'm asking what you are talking about, and why you think Xavi would choose players based on something other than merit if he one day became our coach.
It seems strange to make a comment like that in response to a predictable statement to the press about a friend and teammate being linked to the club

So Xavi wants Reina to be the replacement of Valdes instead of a high potential youngster? Still you are saying that he will select players on merit?
If he was our coach could you see him dropping under performing big names like Pique, Alves etc? (when they were in bad form). He might turn out to be a bit like Tito except i expect him to have some rotation.
 

Aryagorn

Improvin' Perfection!!
If I had to pick one among the crop of current superstars to be our future manager... I would straight away pick Puyi. The man has the heart of a lion, the charismatic authority of a king and doesn't give a rat's ass for super stars unless they are living upto their image! He could well be our own Siir Alex Ferguson, i.e., even in case he fell short tactically he would drive the players to give their best till the very last minute which could very well fetch us the trophies like it did for SAF!!
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
If I had to pick one among the crop of current superstars to be our future manager... I would straight away pick Puyi. The man has the heart of a lion, the charismatic authority of a king and doesn't give a rat's ass for super stars unless they are living upto their image! He could well be our own Siir Alex Ferguson, i.e., even in case he fell short tactically he would drive the players to give their best till the very last minute which could very well fetch us the trophies like it did for SAF!!

This
Never been able to understand why everyone expects xavi to be a future barca manager and not puyol.I mean nothing is certain but I think puyol has the potential to be a gr8 manager or at least good assistant
 

Xavinho

New member
So Xavi wants Reina to be the replacement of Valdes instead of a high potential youngster? Still you are saying that he will select players on merit?
If he was our coach could you see him dropping under performing big names like Pique, Alves etc? (when they were in bad form). He might turn out to be a bit like Tito except i expect him to have some rotation.

Of course he's going to say he wants Reina when the media bring it up. He's a friend and teammate. What did you expect him to say? 'Reina? Nah f**k that guy. Bring ter Stegen!'

Commenting to the press on transfer speculation about a friend from his position as a player has nothing to do with the choices he'd make 5 years from now (or however long it takes to get his coaching badges and the minimum required experience) if he one day becomes our coach
 
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