Cesc Fàbregas

[BerkeleyBernie]

Something tells me you're a big fan of Arigo Sacchi, am I right?

Fair point I guess, even though I disagree with it. The problem is, sometimes a system may seem perfect but it's actually flawed. Everyone agreed that Sacchis Milan was one of the best and most fluid teams ever. It still wasn't close to being the most succesful team ever.

Once you're obsessed with having a system perfect, you lose vital tactical flexibility. I think Cesc's style of play brings that.

You have to realise that Xavi has declined, a lot. There's no one to replace him, he's almost unique.

--
For instance, Sacchi's succes with Milan was something he never managed to repeat. He then went on to blame the fact that he could never really find the right players. They never quite understood his system. He simply wasn't flexible enough.

Why is still relevant to Barcelona? Well, it's the same kind of situation really. You talk of a perfect team, with a perfect group fluidity but that's just almost impossible to archive unless you have the right players

When Xavi and Iniesta are gone, are you going to keep on trying to play the same style or do you tweak it slightly? There's a reason why SAF was so successful over a long period of time and Sacchi was not.


I think it's time now, tweak the style of play and bring on Cesc. What Barcelona archived during 2008-2012 is something historical, yes. It's not going to be repeated for a long time. You may see teams winning as much, but not with a team with such fluid style. So why try to keep on playing the exact same style? Without the right players it's not going to work is it?

I hear what you are saying. I don't think Xavi has declined, actually, but other teams have adapted to Barça and don't often leave space behind. So his more dramatic trademark attacking passes are far fewer.

And I agree, the style can be tweaked. I still think Barça is best nowadays with someone attacking the space up in front of Messi, which Tata seems to now allow. Tata has also gotten Messi to be involved in pressing again, which is getting results.

There are many midfielders I find preferable to Cesc (Isco and Gundogan, to name a couple) who I think are more present in the game than Cesc is, and could add attack without sacrificing fluidity. Like I said, it's a personal thing; I just don't like his game very much.

 

[dmode]

There are many midfielders I find preferable to Cesc (Isco and Gundogan, to name a couple) who I think are more present in the game than Cesc is, and could add attack without sacrificing fluidity. Like I said, it's a personal thing; I just don't like his game very much.

I don't even know what "attacking without sacrificing fluidity" means. I think this is some fantasy you have were players play one touch football and suddenly they get a goal. The reality is defense packs 11 men in the box that results in players passing sideways and backwards. That's not "fluidity", that is ineffective. Football is played to be won, by putting the ball in the back of the net. That is where Cesc excels..

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

...players play one touch football and suddenly they get a goal.

Yup, that's Barça under Pep. Stunning, beautiful stuff. Maybe you never saw them play. That's what attracted me to Barça, not the fact that they won games by playing that way. Football is played *to entertain.* Yes, winning can be part of that entertainment, but, believe me, only supporters want to watch grind it out negative football.

It so happens the EPL has fans that generally prefer a different kind of entertainment than fans of La Liga. More direct, more running back and forth, more running in channels and crosses into the box, hoping an attacker wins it instead of a defender. I find it boring myself. And EPL fans feel the same about watching technical ball-circulating teams like Barça. It's not their kind of entertainment, even if it wins.

And absolutely right, most teams now play Barça by getting behind the ball and hoping for a chance on a counter. Which does cause the ball to circulate more, as Barça, though attack-minded, is conservative in the chances they take. It may no longer be possible against such tactics to play as wonderfully as was possible in the past. But "being direct" is inherently more risky, and I'm not convinced it'll be all that useful against superior opposition. If you think Barça is getting punished on the counter now, what do you think will happen when up against the top teams? If Cesc's failed attempts result in Barça scrambling back over and over, not so sure his successful attempts are worth it. And certainly less entertaining to the fan of technical football.

 

[Kerrybai]

Yup, that's Barça under Pep. Stunning, beautiful stuff. Maybe you never saw them play. That's what attracted me to Barça, not the fact that they won games by playing that way. Football is played *to entertain.* Yes, winning can be part of that entertainment, but, believe me, only supporters want to watch grind it out negative football.

It so happens the EPL has fans that generally prefer a different kind of entertainment than fans of La Liga. More direct, more running back and forth, more running in channels and crosses into the box, hoping an attacker wins it instead of a defender. I find it boring myself. And EPL fans feel the same about watching technical ball-circulating teams like Barça. It's not their kind of entertainment, even if it wins.

And absolutely right, most teams now play Barça by getting behind the ball and hoping for a chance on a counter. Which does cause the ball to circulate more, as Barça, though attack-minded, is conservative in the chances they take. It may no longer be possible against such tactics to play as wonderfully as was possible in the past. But "being direct" is inherently more risky, and I'm not convinced it'll be all that useful against superior opposition. If you think Barça is getting punished on the counter now, what do you think will happen when up against the top teams? If Cesc's failed attempts result in Barça scrambling back over and over, not so sure his successful attempts are worth it. And certainly less entertaining to the fan of technical football.

I fully understand where you are coming from but I don't think Cesc is as detrimental to the 'Barca style' as your are making out. Teams who park the bus have been able to stop us in the past, some have even embarrassed us ( Milan, Bayern, Celtic ), and Cesc acts as a 'curveball' to probe the opposition in a different manner, however I don't he disrupts our style as much as some people make out. Under Tito there were some games where he was asked to control the game and our style fall apart, but this season in a freerer attacking role his disruption is barely felt (IMO).

 

[Poor_Sunyol]

Neymar - Cesc - Messi

That is the formation for me.

 

[jamrock]

The verticalization of our play has helped him as was said when he was signed when intelligent debates where had here, but this verticalization will make the team that is already susceptible to the counter even more so.

So it's a catch 22 do we play horizatal but not just for the sake of it but effectively like we once did are do we go vertical to get the best out of cesc.

As for where he fits its either at the top of a diamond or in the middle of a 4-2-3-1.

 

[lostchild]

Neymar - Cesc - Messi

That is the formation for me.

its pretty amazing to me how a player who always played CM in Arsenal, and was pretty damn good at it, suddenly becomes a striker or a false9 or even a winger (?!?!) in some games

yes, he used to be CAM sometimes in Arsenal and take a larger part of the attacking game,
but we dont play this way, we use 1 DM which is Busquests and 2 CM's, Xavi who stays back more, and Iniesta who goes up more,
so really.. you dont have to be so smart to see that Fabregas is really slow and that he cant dribble or go past any defenders on his own, or even get some nice decent shots from far,
i agree, he can score some goals with his amazing inside runs on attack, (if/when he manages to finish it well)
thats about it.

is it that hard to swap him around with Xavi and Iniesta ? Tata keeps talking about rotation, so just rotate Xavi-Iniesta-Cesc and add Sergi Roberto if theres an injury... or Dos Santos.

but please
ENOUGH with Cesc being a forward.. it was just ridiculous and i hope we dont see it again
let him pass and make some inside runs from time to time.. please.

 

[CatalinR10]

its pretty amazing to me how a player who always played CM in Arsenal, and was pretty damn good at it, suddenly becomes a striker or a false9 or even a winger (?!?!) in some games

yes, he used to be CAM sometimes in Arsenal and take a larger part of the attacking game,
but we dont play this way, we use 1 DM which is Busquests and 2 CM's, Xavi who stays back more, and Iniesta who goes up more,
so really.. you dont have to be so smart to see that Fabregas is really slow and that he cant dribble or go past any defenders on his own, or even get some nice decent shots from far,
i agree, he can score some goals with his amazing inside runs on attack, (if/when he manages to finish it well)
thats about it.

is it that hard to swap him around with Xavi and Iniesta ? Tata keeps talking about rotation, so just rotate Xavi-Iniesta-Cesc and add Sergi Roberto if theres an injury... or Dos Santos.

but please
ENOUGH with Cesc being a forward.. it was just ridiculous and i hope we dont see it again
let him pass and make some inside runs from time to time.. please.

This.
He is to slow to play as a false 9 or a striker but is a beast when he is the one providing the last pass.

 

[oz187]

its pretty amazing to me how a player who always played CM in Arsenal, and was pretty damn good at it, suddenly becomes a striker or a false9 or even a winger (?!?!) in some games

Cesc helped Spain win a world cup playing as a false 9. Barca also won all their league games last season when he played there.

There are many midfielders I find preferable to Cesc (Isco and Gundogan, to name a couple) who I think are more present in the game than Cesc is, and could add attack without sacrificing fluidity. Like I said, it's a personal thing; I just don't like his game very much.

Isco and Gundogan may fail to fully adapt to tiki-taka and trying to get through a parked bus.

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

I fully understand where you are coming from but I don't think Cesc is as detrimental to the 'Barca style' as your are making out. Teams who park the bus have been able to stop us in the past, some have even embarrassed us ( Milan, Bayern, Celtic ), and Cesc acts as a 'curveball' to probe the opposition in a different manner, however I don't he disrupts our style as much as some people make out. Under Tito there were some games where he was asked to control the game and our style fall apart, but this season in a freerer attacking role his disruption is barely felt (IMO).

It's possible, can't tell yet. And he's just one piece of the new Barça which is evolving- Neymar and Tata are the other main components, and I don't think we'll see the full potential for a while yet.

 

[Poor_Sunyol]

This.
He is to slow to play as a false 9 or a striker but is a beast when he is the one providing the last pass.

Which is exactly why he should be playing as a false number 9. The false number 9 is not there to score goals, but to play slightly deeper to draw one of the CB's out of position in order to make space for one of the inside forwards to run into, and then provide the pass.

The answer is in the name....FALSE NUMBER 9.

Jeeeeeeeeez.

Messi on one side and Neymar on the other will give any defence a headache and give them enough space to exploit.

 

[CatalinR10]

Which is exactly why he should be playing as a false number 9. The false number 9 is not there to score goals, but to play slightly deeper to draw one of the CB's out of position in order to make space for one of the inside forwards to run into, and then provide the pass.

The answer is in the name....FALSE NUMBER 9.

Jeeeeeeeeez.

Messi on one side and Neymar on the other will give any defence a headache and give them enough space to exploit.

He is a beast when providing the last pass but not in a false 9 position. As a false 9 he sucks.


And yeah , a false 9 isn't there to score goals . It would be absurd if someone who plays as a false 9 would score +90 goals a year.

 

[Poor_Sunyol]

Messi is Messi. You can't use him as an example of a typical false number 9, or are we going to get childish all over again.

 

[Meitux]

Which is exactly why he should be playing as a false number 9. The false number 9 is not there to score goals, but to play slightly deeper to draw one of the CB's out of position in order to make space for one of the inside forwards to run into, and then provide the pass.

The answer is in the name....FALSE NUMBER 9.

Jeeeeeeeeez.

Messi on one side and Neymar on the other will give any defence a headache and give them enough space to exploit.

No, it's proved already that he doesn't perform in false 9 position. His best is arguably being used in that attacking midfielder role which is more free in Barcelona's system. He needs someone to target in order to provide assists. If he'll be used in the centre and drops and Messi plays on the wing as you say then Messi has to go more to the centre and there won't be width. Then again if this won't happen there will be noone in the centre. Let's face it, Messi will never change position to start on the right and play there for most of the game. He won't be so much less effective but it's different. He's the one that always drops deep to get the ball and provide a final pass or something but with Fabregas behind him he can get assited very well. Fabregas should play in the position that Iniesta plays further forward. He should be used more than Xavi which last year actually in bad year but this season with Tata Cesc fits perfectly to his direct attacking system.

It's all about the timing of his transfer that was just wrong, facing competitiong in the already established legendary midfield of Xavi and Iniesta. But the time passes, Xavi's getting old and we are slightly playing in a different way. Fabregas fits into it and already proved in pre season and right now which is the best position for him.

 

[Poor_Sunyol]

Well I think that the way you get the most out of having Messi and Neymar in the team is to play them on opposite flanks. Move Cesc to an AM role on top of a diamond then. The end result is the same as him playing in a false number 9 role. Tata will not be allowed to change from a 4-3-3. I believe that was in his contract, something about the style of play etc.