Cesc Fàbregas

Vapor

New member
Point was his contributions have been blown out proportion since he found his form. There's nothing factual about that claim..none of Mascherano, Busquets, Messi, Iniesta, Xavi and VV have been playing below Cesc's level this season. Our fullbacks and wingers have been either shit or inconsistent.

I don't know how closely you were paying attention to the match against Sevilla, or if you've had a second viewing (often helps) but there was nothing stale about Barca prior to Cesc coming on, we caused problems and had them scrambling in and around their box with nearly every possession and always looked the more threatening side at 1-0, and they were easily dealt with on the defensive end save of course set pieces. The 2-0 goal was hardly a surprise or against the run of play.
Cesc was good but you have to be joking if you're telling me it was him and not Messi who made the crucial difference on the offensive end.
Perhaps stale was a bad word. We were playing well the whole game... but it seemed to my perception that we weren't being very penetrative until Cesc came in. Penetration and directness seems to be something he does currently have in abundance more than Iniesta and Xavi.

Perhaps Cesc has been "blown out of proportion"... or perhaps not. Perhaps people are just glad he is finally finding his potential and being one of the most creative players on the team. Yes, perhaps stating he has been our best player this season as "fact" is going overboard, but it is an opinion held by many. If not "best", certainly our most "creative" player as far as goal chances go, and I'm sure the stats would back that up.

he didn't turn jack, he was in the right place at the right time for the messi move and that's it
That's exactly it. I doubt Iniesta would have been in that right place at that right time in that moment. Who knows, Iniesta could have ended up creating something else in the time remaining, but for the ~70 minutes he played, he didn't create a chance like Cesc did. The whole art of creating like that is being at the right place at the right time... that's why he was so effective.

I would disagree that it was Messi alone that turned the game, because that 2nd goal was not a solo goal but the combination of Cesc's position + Neymar's perfect pass + Messi's magic. The third goal, yes, was completely Messi, but I would not attribute the turn around to solely Messi. And not solely to Fabregas either, but I do think he was a big part. It isn't just me who noticed that we had a distinct edge about us once Cesc came on.

DonAndres said:
Even today, the difference looked so damn obvious. For the entire first half and some of the 2nd, our passing play was completely static and our players looked chained and tied to their positions with little motivation and fire (with the exception of Neymar). Later when we shifted to our attacking style to be more urgent, it was a frenzy of switching positions and linking up between Nemesis and Cesc. He was the key that unlocked the beast of our attack, bringing out the best of Messi who had previously been lethargic, and providing a perfect connection for Neymar as well.
 
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BerkeleyBernie

Senior Member
I agree. There's not much to create with when the wingers he has to pass to *are instructed to* stay wide and are afraid to attack the goal *when the CF (who the wingers are "creating space for") walks around when he doesn't have the ball.*

Corrected. Just saying.
 

Vapor

New member
Corrected. Just saying.
Fair point. Though in that case, why does Neymar play how he plays? You think Tata has given him different instruction and more freedom? He definitely cuts in more and plays more penetratively than Pedro and Alexis. Even Villa used to attack more than they do. I have a feeling it may be a combination of instruction and, simply, lack of self-belief and initiative on their part. Though your point about Messi being static certainly does ring true.

To illustrate my point... what if we had an Henry alongside Messi and Neymar on the RW (I know that wasn't his position, but just for the sake of this example)? Would Henry be as... "passive" as Pedro and Sanchez, in the name of giving Messi room? I don't know... I personally doubt it. Although the wingers are there to give Messi room, I think that we get the most of the false 9 position when the wingers also make more runs and attacking moves on goal that Messi/Cesc/the false 9 can feed through balls to. Thus leading to more penetration... one of the keys we have been seeming to be lacking more lately.
 
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DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
It wasn't all Cesc, but he was one of the missing links. Right before he came on, Messi started to get things going and the team was playing with more urgency, but still struggled to find the way in. After Cesc came in, the connection solidified and we saw actual goalscoring chances getting created.

It's not about a continuous on the ball fluidity or grace in the mold of Iniesta, Gundogan, or Isco that Cesc provides. However he is the perfect filter to channel our direct, vertical attacks through. He is often making those movements into the right place at the right time, and his passing style is perfect for creating attacks while Messi is still the one providing on the ball brilliance.

It might seem like Cesc's influence is being exaggerated, and to an extent that'd be a correct observation. However as things stand, it seems to be working, and he's performing admirably.
 

BerkeleyBernie

Senior Member
Fair point. Though in that case, why does Neymar play how he plays? You think Tata has given him different instruction and more freedom?

Actually, I think Tata has given different instructions to all the forwards (than Tito did). Pedro and Alexis are overlapping in the center much more, and Messi is starting to move more in between the lines (and definitely back to pressing). It's only been a few games, but there is now much more movement in the center than last year, when Messi was a stump until he dropped back into the midfield around 15-20 minutes into the game, and the wide forwards were instructed to hug the touchlines.

This is a typical view of the front of the pitch last year (once Messi drops into the midfield). Here Alexis is the man trying to attack. Options?

alexis_vs_8.jpg
 

Kerrybai

New member
Actually, I think Tata has given different instructions to all the forwards (than Tito did). Pedro and Alexis are overlapping in the center much more, and Messi is starting to move more in between the lines (and definitely back to pressing). It's only been a few games, but there is now much more movement in the center than last year, when Messi was a stump until he dropped back into the midfield around 15-20 minutes into the game, and the wide forwards were instructed to hug the touchlines.

This is a typical view of the front of the pitch last year (once Messi drops into the midfield). Here Alexis is the man trying to attack. Options?

alexis_vs_8.jpg

Those are the type of scenarios where one of our wingers should take up a far more central position. When Messi drops deep for Argentina Aguero slots into his position. Hopefully your observations are correct and our wingers have been given freedom.
 

jamrock

Senior Member
lets just cool the cesc hype until the end of the season, it was like this last season as well at the beginning when we were again playing more vertical, but as the season progressed the the natural style of play started to come into effect he disappeared, as he is incapable of playing as a midfielder.

he is doing well though and must be given credit for that.

still remember the cesc is xavi replacement days by the cesc fans. lol
 

Elite-BkD

New member
Perhaps stale was a bad word. We were playing well the whole game... but it seemed to my perception that we weren't being very penetrative until Cesc came in. Penetration and directness seems to be something he does currently have in abundance more than Iniesta and Xavi.

Perhaps Cesc has been "blown out of proportion"... or perhaps not. Perhaps people are just glad he is finally finding his potential and being one of the most creative players on the team. Yes, perhaps stating he has been our best player this season as "fact" is going overboard, but it is an opinion held by many. If not "best", certainly our most "creative" player as far as goal chances go, and I'm sure the stats would back that up.



That's exactly it. I doubt Iniesta would have been in that right place at that right time in that moment. Who knows, Iniesta could have ended up creating something else in the time remaining, but for the ~70 minutes he played, he didn't create a chance like Cesc did. The whole art of creating like that is being at the right place at the right time... that's why he was so effective.

I would disagree that it was Messi alone that turned the game, because that 2nd goal was not a solo goal but the combination of Cesc's position + Neymar's perfect pass + Messi's magic. The third goal, yes, was completely Messi, but I would not attribute the turn around to solely Messi. And not solely to Fabregas either, but I do think he was a big part. It isn't just me who noticed that we had a distinct edge about us once Cesc came on.

A few points I'd like to make:

Firstly, regarding the comparison between Cesc and Iniesta in this particular match:
I'd consider it an enormous stretch to state that Cesc created the chance which provided the 2-0 goal, that had nothing to do with Cesc's creativity and if he'd done anything else with the ball it would have been idiotic, it was a good team goal between Sanchez/Messi/Cesc/Neymar, and Cesc certainly didn't have the most asked of him on that play.
As for Iniesta not offering anything comparable going forward all night, I seem to recall that his last play involved redirecting a Sevilla player's pass to Neymar after a throw-in, getting the return pass and beating his first challenger out wide, then running inside to the corner of the box until he had attracted *four* players to surround and close him down, and releasing a perfectly timed/delivered pass to Messi at the top of the box who happened to send his shot high and wide.
(as a sidenote - Cesc played with a fresh Alexis who was better than Tello, he played when Messi clearly upped the tempo of his game and did a majority of his aggressive, on-the-ball running, and he played when Sevilla was considerably drained mentally/physically)

Now, as for any player of the season discussion - "If not "best", certainly our most "creative" player as far as goal chances go, and I'm sure the stats would back that up."
This about sums it up nicely, if one had to give that title to any Barca player Cesc would probably be most worthy, with the possible exception of Messi although he hasn't been as consistent as Cesc this season to date.
Still, I'd say Fabregas is making those creative/attacking plays more than our other midfielders this season because it's what he is excellent at, not because he's not better than all of them in that regard. The midfield unit is responsible for a TON of work other than simply providing the killer ball, and most other areas Cesc is hopeless compared to the big three. If Tata asked Iniesta to play aggressive and risky attacking ball for the entire match, he'd be excellent at it, which he has made abundantly clear with incredible consistency for years. Ask Cesc to play a patient, intelligent game which involves a lot of distribution/tempo control and hanging back smartly to kill off counters, and you get a massive drop in quality from Iniesta or Xavi.
I don't think he's been as good overall as Iniesta and Xavi, he just does more of the 'exciting' stuff in general, and people seem to tend to confuse that with performing better in a general sense.

Anyways, I don't mean to sound like I hate Cesc or something - he has been awesome this season and I hope he keeps it up because at this point I'd say we've got 4 of the top 10 attacking players in the game right now if not better, which is just ridiculous, and this before the team has hit its stride. The future definitely looks bright..
 

Vapor

New member
A few points I'd like to make:

Firstly, regarding the comparison between Cesc and Iniesta in this particular match:
I'd consider it an enormous stretch to state that Cesc created the chance which provided the 2-0 goal, that had nothing to do with Cesc's creativity and if he'd done anything else with the ball it would have been idiotic, it was a good team goal between Sanchez/Messi/Cesc/Neymar, and Cesc certainly didn't have the most asked of him on that play.
As for Iniesta not offering anything comparable going forward all night, I seem to recall that his last play involved redirecting a Sevilla player's pass to Neymar after a throw-in, getting the return pass and beating his first challenger out wide, then running inside to the corner of the box until he had attracted *four* players to surround and close him down, and releasing a perfectly timed/delivered pass to Messi at the top of the box who happened to send his shot high and wide.
(as a sidenote - Cesc played with a fresh Alexis who was better than Tello, he played when Messi clearly upped the tempo of his game and did a majority of his aggressive, on-the-ball running, and he played when Sevilla was considerably drained mentally/physically)

Now, as for any player of the season discussion - "If not "best", certainly our most "creative" player as far as goal chances go, and I'm sure the stats would back that up."
This about sums it up nicely, if one had to give that title to any Barca player Cesc would probably be most worthy, with the possible exception of Messi although he hasn't been as consistent as Cesc this season to date.
Still, I'd say Fabregas is making those creative/attacking plays more than our other midfielders this season because it's what he is excellent at, not because he's not better than all of them in that regard. The midfield unit is responsible for a TON of work other than simply providing the killer ball, and most other areas Cesc is hopeless compared to the big three. If Tata asked Iniesta to play aggressive and risky attacking ball for the entire match, he'd be excellent at it, which he has made abundantly clear with incredible consistency for years. Ask Cesc to play a patient, intelligent game which involves a lot of distribution/tempo control and hanging back smartly to kill off counters, and you get a massive drop in quality from Iniesta or Xavi.
I don't think he's been as good overall as Iniesta and Xavi, he just does more of the 'exciting' stuff in general, and people seem to tend to confuse that with performing better in a general sense.

Anyways, I don't mean to sound like I hate Cesc or something - he has been awesome this season and I hope he keeps it up because at this point I'd say we've got 4 of the top 10 attacking players in the game right now if not better, which is just ridiculous, and this before the team has hit its stride. The future definitely looks bright..
I would agree with pretty much all of that. Well said. Each midfielder seems to be excelling at his particular niche, when we have 3 world class midfielders with 3 different niche's, its a beautiful thing.
 

jamrock

Senior Member
Really? How many times would you say he was even played AS a midfielder? Rubbish.
Its been a while sense I gave a footer post the time of day but to put it simply, he has played in the midfield numerous times for barca and Spain and what happens every time is that he is either benched or pushed up to a false 9/am position.

Why because he is simply incapable of playing the horizontal game, its been coached out of him by the prem. Its only now with our renewed emphasis on a more vertical play that he can go there and look good.

He is no midfielder not in the Spanish barca sense anyways.
 
F

Flavia

Guest
He wasn't as brilliant today, but also not bad, as many were saying on chat. He was playing too deep, probably instructed to do it. He did much better anytime he went forward.
 

SeloBarca

Senior Member
He will never be the player to play alongside Iniesta. He needs a much more free role, and by giving him that, we loose way to much on our buildup.
Xavi is the maestro of our game, playing without him is like an orchestra without a dirigent. They can play, but not nearly as good.
 

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