JamDav1982
Senior Member
So what would have been the idea of telling them to 'compete' which keeps both happy?
Where has this worked with two top keepers before?
Claudio Bravo
- Thread starter mackybagnack
- Start date
So what would have been the idea of telling them to 'compete' which keeps both happy?
Where has this worked with two top keepers before?
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Nice twist of someones argument... Flavia said he wouldnt play 'La Liga AND CL' to which you flipped to 'La Liga OR CL'.
Great! We have reached another agreement. Bravo has performed better and the club is therefore selling the better performing keeper.
My mistake. Thought Flavia and I were agreeing. No intent to flip anyones argument.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Ok fair enough.
Any comment on how to keep them both keepers happy? Telling them to 'compete' doesnt work.
F
Flavia
Guest
No one told Bravo he'd be playing only cdr. If you read the catalan press, you'd know Lucho's stance didn't change. He wanted to keep them competing. Likely Bravo would remain playing la liga, and Mats the cups.
You are making up this nonsesical story based who knows on what. Mats has absolutely no upper hand to demand anything from FC Barcelona. If he did do what you're making up that he did, what would likely happen is Lucho would get pissed off, mats would be benched, Bravo would play all competitions, and mats would only be allowed to leave if some club paid his 80m buyout.
God Serena
New member
Bravo has only performed better because he gets the opportunity to play every single week while Mats is lucky to get two games a month most of the time. Something you interestingly have refused to address in this little tantrum of yours.
It's not Lucho's decision, it's the clubs. Lucho will obviously want to retain both keepers, he's the coach. The club would tell him who is the starting keeper in each competition. Unless you beleive the club doesnt meddle on whose starting..
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Just making more rubbish up and going deeper with it.
Of course Lucho chooses what keeper starts each competition.
I'll try again, Mandrake. Quit ignoring my answer this time (see page 242).
You think he hasn't? I bet they both work hard. My point is we knew this day would come, so why does it matter that they, in their own was, have been vocal about their roles in the press? Sure, Bravo has been more respectful about it, while ter Stegen comes across as a bit of (butt)hurt, but essentially their message is the same: it can't continue. And again, it hasn't caused any kind of implosion at all. In fact, one could argue that their quality and performances are the result of the competitiveness, including the vocal aspect, that's been created by having two such talented keepers.
I haven't said they've made an equal amount of mistakes, but ter Stegen also haven't made 4x as many mistakes. The context favors Bravo as he gets regular playing time/more matches thus being able to find rhythm and confidence. He has made mistakes despite that advantage. MAtS hear made more mistakes, but not to the degree people on here claim, but has done so without the aforementioned advantage that Bravo has. Point is every keeper makes mistakes, and both our keepers have made mistakes, but the context surrounding those mistakes should not be ignored - which I think it is.
Also, what do we categorize as mistakes? If it's mistakes directly leading to goals, then Bravo made the first big one in his first match (as I recall) - a preseason match against Napoli. It's was a horrible drop, but he was lucky that ter Stegen was out injured for that time. None of us knows how Lucho would have reacted. Did he plan on starting MAtS in the league? Did he plan to start Bravo in the league - and would he still have started after the Napoli match if MAtS wasn't still injured? We do not know. It's pure speculation. What we do know is that Bravo got the opportunity first, and after the Napoli match he showed to be very reliable. Not just reliable - he was great! During all this, what did MAtS think? MAtS maybe (more 'likely') thought he was bought to be the 1st choice, but because Bravo did so well, he never gets his chance in the league. Maybe MAtS thinks he didn't get a fair shake to begin with? Shit, I'd be disappointed too - even though he could probably see Bravo also being quality and deserving of starting. But then ter Stegen shows his quality in the CL and Copa, making big saves against Bayern, City etc. and, I assume, trains hard. He probably wants to continue to prove himself like the competitor he is. He grows more and more impatient and it shows. For me, that's not hard to understand. And now we are here. But I digress (a lot). In terms of obvious leading-to-goal mistakes, then MAtS made ones against Athletic Club and Roma. Those were bad mistakes, and they happened in more important matches that Bravo's first leading-to-goal mistake. That's likely why they were amplified here - I want to believe that rather than believing than people overlook Bravo's mistakes. They've both also made other mistakes leading to goals, but the margin isn't x4. It's not equal either, but certainly not the big margin that some people want it to be in order for it to fit into their narrative. Also, what if mistakes are categorized as simple misplaced passes leading to pressure from opponents? I'm that case, I'd bet Bravo is worse than ter Stegen. Mistakes in passing, although not nearly as severe in terms of consequence, is something that happens more frequently than leading-to-goals mistakes. Bravo isn't that much worse (like MAtS isn't 4x worse in terms of leading-to-goals mistakes), but MAtS is better in this department. That's incredibly valuable in our way of playing. Crucial really. For me, the cumulative effect of Bravo's mistakes is worse than those of ter Stegen's. I can understand why some may disagree, but that's my view on the whole mistake thing.
MAtS has shown to not be far behind Bravo in terms of shot stopping ability despite the latter's advantage in playing time and also despite Bravo's age/experience. That's something that annoys. People (not saying you are one of them) that refuse to acknowledge the context. Anyway, MAtS is younger and thus have a lot of more years to improve on his already high level. Bravo, unless he is Buffon or van der Sar, doesn't. He'll probably be great during the next 2-3 years, but at that point he's more likely to decline. MAtS was bought as and should continue to be the future. This decision is a no-brainer.
You think he hasn't? I bet they both work hard. My point is we knew this day would come, so why does it matter that they, in their own was, have been vocal about their roles in the press? Sure, Bravo has been more respectful about it, while ter Stegen comes across as a bit of (butt)hurt, but essentially their message is the same: it can't continue. And again, it hasn't caused any kind of implosion at all. In fact, one could argue that their quality and performances are the result of the competitiveness, including the vocal aspect, that's been created by having two such talented keepers.
I haven't said they've made an equal amount of mistakes, but ter Stegen also haven't made 4x as many mistakes. The context favors Bravo as he gets regular playing time/more matches thus being able to find rhythm and confidence. He has made mistakes despite that advantage. MAtS hear made more mistakes, but not to the degree people on here claim, but has done so without the aforementioned advantage that Bravo has. Point is every keeper makes mistakes, and both our keepers have made mistakes, but the context surrounding those mistakes should not be ignored - which I think it is.
Also, what do we categorize as mistakes? If it's mistakes directly leading to goals, then Bravo made the first big one in his first match (as I recall) - a preseason match against Napoli. It's was a horrible drop, but he was lucky that ter Stegen was out injured for that time. None of us knows how Lucho would have reacted. Did he plan on starting MAtS in the league? Did he plan to start Bravo in the league - and would he still have started after the Napoli match if MAtS wasn't still injured? We do not know. It's pure speculation. What we do know is that Bravo got the opportunity first, and after the Napoli match he showed to be very reliable. Not just reliable - he was great! During all this, what did MAtS think? MAtS maybe (more 'likely') thought he was bought to be the 1st choice, but because Bravo did so well, he never gets his chance in the league. Maybe MAtS thinks he didn't get a fair shake to begin with? Shit, I'd be disappointed too - even though he could probably see Bravo also being quality and deserving of starting. But then ter Stegen shows his quality in the CL and Copa, making big saves against Bayern, City etc. and, I assume, trains hard. He probably wants to continue to prove himself like the competitor he is. He grows more and more impatient and it shows. For me, that's not hard to understand. And now we are here. But I digress (a lot). In terms of obvious leading-to-goal mistakes, then MAtS made ones against Athletic Club and Roma. Those were bad mistakes, and they happened in more important matches that Bravo's first leading-to-goal mistake. That's likely why they were amplified here - I want to believe that rather than believing than people overlook Bravo's mistakes. They've both also made other mistakes leading to goals, but the margin isn't x4. It's not equal either, but certainly not the big margin that some people want it to be in order for it to fit into their narrative. Also, what if mistakes are categorized as simple misplaced passes leading to pressure from opponents? I'm that case, I'd bet Bravo is worse than ter Stegen. Mistakes in passing, although not nearly as severe in terms of consequence, is something that happens more frequently than leading-to-goals mistakes. Bravo isn't that much worse (like MAtS isn't 4x worse in terms of leading-to-goals mistakes), but MAtS is better in this department. That's incredibly valuable in our way of playing. Crucial really. For me, the cumulative effect of Bravo's mistakes is worse than those of ter Stegen's. I can understand why some may disagree, but that's my view on the whole mistake thing.
MAtS has shown to not be far behind Bravo in terms of shot stopping ability despite the latter's advantage in playing time and also despite Bravo's age/experience. That's something that annoys. People (not saying you are one of them) that refuse to acknowledge the context. Anyway, MAtS is younger and thus have a lot of more years to improve on his already high level. Bravo, unless he is Buffon or van der Sar, doesn't. He'll probably be great during the next 2-3 years, but at that point he's more likely to decline. MAtS was bought as and should continue to be the future. This decision is a no-brainer.
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Tantrum, hissy fit.. whats the problem with debating different point of views?
Well, Bravo has earned getting more playing time. Lets remember the disaster that occurred when MATS replaced him several matches in la Liga when he was injured
Yannik
Senior Member
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