Claudio Bravo

[Mandrake]

I also remember that when Bravo returned we still conceded goals at the same rate. I also remember Mats stepping in for Bravo in his second injury and doing just as good a job.

To be honest, you want them to "Compete" for their minutes but if there was true competition Mats would have gotten a fair chance to be the La Liga keeper after Bravo failed to make a single save in El Clasico.

Bravo conceding goals at the same rate as Ter Stegen? Where did I read that the amount of goals a keeper is scored is a misleading stat?

 

[Mandrake]

Same thing Bravo wanted to talk about I would imagine.

Wow, you're really smart.

 

[KingMessi]

Bravo conceding goals at the same rate as Ter Stegen? Where did I read that the amount of goals a keeper is scored is a misleading stat?

Don't know man, goalkeepers don't really score goals, unless they're Rogerio Ceni.

Wow, you're really smart.

Gee thanks.

 

[God Serena]

Bravo conceding goals at the same rate as Ter Stegen? Where did I read that the amount of goals a keeper is scored is a misleading stat?

That's exactly the point.

They conceded goals at the same rate so obviously the keeper wasn't the one at fault.

 

[bismp]

That's exactly the point.

They conceded goals at the same rate so obviously the keeper wasn't the one at fault.

THIS

When MAtS conceded many goals it was his fault,but when Bravo came back and we continued to concede many goals,this time it was the defense's fault!

 

[Mandrake]

I'll try again, Mandrake. Quit ignoring my answer this time (see page 242).



You think he hasn't? I bet they both work hard. My point is we knew this day would come, so why does it matter that they, in their own was, have been vocal about their roles in the press? Sure, Bravo has been more respectful about it, while ter Stegen comes across as a bit of (butt)hurt, but essentially their message is the same: it can't continue. And again, it hasn't caused any kind of implosion at all. In fact, one could argue that their quality and performances are the result of the competitiveness, including the vocal aspect, that's been created by having two such talented keepers.

I haven't said they've made an equal amount of mistakes, but ter Stegen also haven't made 4x as many mistakes. The context favors Bravo as he gets regular playing time/more matches thus being able to find rhythm and confidence. He has made mistakes despite that advantage. MAtS hear made more mistakes, but not to the degree people on here claim, but has done so without the aforementioned advantage that Bravo has. Point is every keeper makes mistakes, and both our keepers have made mistakes, but the context surrounding those mistakes should not be ignored - which I think it is.

Also, what do we categorize as mistakes? If it's mistakes directly leading to goals, then Bravo made the first big one in his first match (as I recall) - a preseason match against Napoli. It's was a horrible drop, but he was lucky that ter Stegen was out injured for that time. None of us knows how Lucho would have reacted. Did he plan on starting MAtS in the league? Did he plan to start Bravo in the league - and would he still have started after the Napoli match if MAtS wasn't still injured? We do not know. It's pure speculation. What we do know is that Bravo got the opportunity first, and after the Napoli match he showed to be very reliable. Not just reliable - he was great! During all this, what did MAtS think? MAtS maybe (more 'likely') thought he was bought to be the 1st choice, but because Bravo did so well, he never gets his chance in the league. Maybe MAtS thinks he didn't get a fair shake to begin with? Shit, I'd be disappointed too - even though he could probably see Bravo also being quality and deserving of starting. But then ter Stegen shows his quality in the CL and Copa, making big saves against Bayern, City etc. and, I assume, trains hard. He probably wants to continue to prove himself like the competitor he is. He grows more and more impatient and it shows. For me, that's not hard to understand. And now we are here. But I digress (a lot). In terms of obvious leading-to-goal mistakes, then MAtS made ones against Athletic Club and Roma. Those were bad mistakes, and they happened in more important matches that Bravo's first leading-to-goal mistake. That's likely why they were amplified here - I want to believe that rather than believing than people overlook Bravo's mistakes. They've both also made other mistakes leading to goals, but the margin isn't x4. It's not equal either, but certainly not the big margin that some people want it to be in order for it to fit into their narrative. Also, what if mistakes are categorized as simple misplaced passes leading to pressure from opponents? I'm that case, I'd bet Bravo is worse than ter Stegen. Mistakes in passing, although not nearly as severe in terms of consequence, is something that happens more frequently than leading-to-goals mistakes. Bravo isn't that much worse (like MAtS isn't 4x worse in terms of leading-to-goals mistakes), but MAtS is better in this department. That's incredibly valuable in our way of playing. Crucial really. For me, the cumulative effect of Bravo's mistakes is worse than those of ter Stegen's. I can understand why some may disagree, but that's my view on the whole mistake thing.

MAtS has shown to not be far behind Bravo in terms of shot stopping ability despite the latter's advantage in playing time and also despite Bravo's age/experience. That's something that annoys. People (not saying you are one of them) that refuse to acknowledge the context. Anyway, MAtS is younger and thus have a lot of more years to improve on his already high level. Bravo, unless he is Buffon or van der Sar, doesn't. He'll probably be great during the next 2-3 years, but at that point he's more likely to decline. MAtS was bought as and should continue to be the future. This decision is a no-brainer.

I agree with you on that Bravo has been much more diplomatic in the interviews conceded than MATS, who'se threatened to leave the club if he doesn't get more playing time. I don't agree with you on the mistakes being because MATS gets less playing time: we'll see this season how many brain farts he has while he's playing twice a week. I think it has to do with his very risky style of play. You can prefer it or not. I like having a GK that gives me more security.

Whether the decision is a no brainer or not I think is a little more difficult than hey, he's younger. You could have loaned MATS out and kept Bravo while at his prime, getting MATS more minutes in another team. You could have tried to give them more minutes each. Almost every player wants to be at Barcelona over any other team - exploit that and try to make them happy. But I think it would have been difficult with the germans attitude.

At the end of the day, we're worse off. We'll have only one WC goalie, and the one we're keeping is the one that's been outperformed.

I've enjoyed the discussion, but I don't think there's much more to say. I'm getting a little tired of the Mandrake vs Barca Forum thing

 

[SirXavi]

Messi told the board to sell Bravo after the Copa loss. #ElDictadorStrikesAgain

 

[DonAK]

Has [MENTION=15313]hardyboy[/MENTION] said we'll lose the league with ter Stegen yet?

Going to count how many times he'll post the same thing.

Hopefully the mods won't delete my post, send me an infraction and let his post stay as they did a few hours ago.

 

[Flavia]

Then what did the club talk to MATS and Bravo about? If Lucho decides who is playing and the club has nothing to do with it, I don't understand what MATS wanted to talk about

So you're finally admitting both talked to the club? It wasn't MAtS only, and Bravo was the one who was first to do it. They went to talk about offers they had, the club didn't call them. And the club said, buyout or nothing. The story was over for a bit, and then it resurfaced Bravo had insisted on being sold. He likely talked to Lucho and Unzue, and not only to Albert Soler, and they decided to let him go. Bravo is not being sold against his will, or because he'd be demoted to the cdr. Lucho is all about meritocracy, and I really doubt he would agree to do that to Bravo. The whole dressing room wouldn't be ok with that either. It'd be a crazy thing to pull.

 

[Mandrake]

That's exactly the point you nimrod.

They conceded goals at the same rate so obviously the keeper wasn't the one at fault.

The keeper is at fault when his mistakes cost us goals. Like the one's wheve seen MATS make time and time again.

 

[oneirophobos]

Messi told the board to sell Bravo after the Copa loss. #ElDictador

Only after Ter Stegen gave him the green light to start proceedings.

Of course Ter Stegen ordered Lucho to only play him in the cups these past two seasons as a way to build his cover. Nobody would suspect him, he's only the cup keeper. What power could he possibly have?

Messi: sell bravo!!1 taht fck saved mi kopa kick

Ter Stegen:

 

[Mandrake]

So you're finally admitting both talked to the club? It wasn't MAtS only, and Bravo was the one who was first to do it. They went to talk about offers they had, the club didn't call them. And the club said, buyout or nothing. The story was over for a bit, and then it resurfaced Bravo had insisted on being sold. He likely talked to Lucho and Unzue, and not only to Albert Soler, and they decided to let him go. Bravo is not being sold against his will, or because he'd be demoted to the cdr. Lucho is all about meritocracy, and I really doubt he would agree to do that to Bravo. The whole dressing room wouldn't be ok with that either. It'd be a crazy thing to pull.

Of course he talked to the club wanting to know what would happen this season with the keeper position. That's when they told him he wouldn't be starting league or CL and was therefore forced to leave - at least those are the rumours I've read and I tend to beleive them. I think Claudio Bravo would prefer staying at Barca only playing La Liga or CDR/CL instead of going to City. But that's just me.

 

[God Serena]

The keeper is at fault when his mistakes cost us goals. Like the one's wheve seen MATS make time and time again.

If anything that reflects worse on Bravo. He's the one with the vast majority of playing time yet his general level of play is just as low as ter Stegen when he's on a mistake spree?

 

[DonAK]

How many mistakes have MAtS made in his two year career at Barca of irregular playing time? I swear some people make it out to be like he does that all the time.

It's incredible how we've managed to win every trophy but one he has played in(last year's CL) if he's such a crap goalkeeper.

I bet it's still less than how many David de Gea made during his first two years at Manchester United.

 

[Mandrake]

How many mistakes have MAtS made in his two year career at Barca of irregular playing time? I swear some people make it out to be like he does that all the time.

It's incredible how we've managed to win every trophy but one he has played in(last year's CL) if he's such a crap goalkeeper.

I bet it's still less than how many David de Gea made during his first two years at Manchester United.

Spanish super cup 2015 he played the first leg, fucked up big time, and we ended up losing it..