Does messi have any fault?

[Mihai Stefan]

Messi's 18/19 seemed like a one man mission to bring back the CL. I think in part probably because he felt could have done more in the exits in 16/17 and 17/18 and also because of his age and the squad around him - it was the genuine final chance as he started to get older.

The main issue though is if Messi didn't show up, no one else did - absolutely no one. Suarez for all his plaudits was piss poor for the vast majority of CL matches when it mattered. We basically tried to beat organised systems with individual brilliance.

I absolutely agree with you, the same in 2016 with Atletico, he could do more, and I think he realized that in those outings from 2016-18, he could do more for the team, if you look at those matches again, you will see that he simply refuses to run after the ball and waits for all the passes in the middle of the field, without putting any kind of pressure on the opponent.

That's why I'm talking about an organized system, when I say I want Messi to be a full time attacker, I mean to keep his position, to do RW work, to make some runs at defenders, to stay more in the box area, for that, like I said, he is the best striker in history when he has to do that.
If you stay all day in the middle of the field when you should be in attack, you create a huge imbalance between your teammates, someone has to take your position and someone else has to take the position of the one WHO takes your position.

Simply, with this, you only rely on MESSI and that's it, if Messi doesn't excel one day, absolutely nobody will do anything, and then TikTok/Youtube/Instagram will be full of edits hours in which they complain that Messi is not helped. What would you like to be helped with when Rakitic is RW? What would you like him to help you with when you don't defend yourself at all, even though you sit as a midfielder, in the middle of the field? Sometimes I saw Sergi Roberto/Jordi alba, creating width in the attack, standing close to the RW position, it's stupid, I'm sorry if it sounds bad to some.

 

[Haraldinho]

Messi = Goat

 

[DonAK]

I will answer both of your answers here, I admit that in 2019, Messi was a ONE MAN ARMY, but the matches in which he really played extremely well and the team to say that it was too weak, it's too far from me honestly. The match with Real Betis is an exception from that season, with all my respect for you. In the same way, I could have given the match against Real Madrid, exactly from the same season, and said that "look how well Barcelona played without Messi, and in an elclasico".
And if it is still about the Barcelona/Rakitic midfielders, in 2019, Rakitic really had a nice impact on Barcelona, if you remember the goal against Tottenham, from the same season, or the assists for Messi, in the UCL groups. (I don't know for sure if they were UCL groups or LaLiga, not to confuse).
As it comes to my topic and what you wrote, in 2019, you know very well that Barcelona had great opportunities to score against Liverpool at Anfield, and they all came as passes from Messi, but still, I can blame on Jordi Alba for missing that opportunity vs Allison? I don't think that Jordi Alba is paid to have a good finish in front of the goal, the same with Coutinho, who was good as an attacking midfielder, but Valverde always played him on the left side in attack, I could never understand why. And you also had Suarez, to score, since Messi created the chances and did not appear in the square area at all, but any phase when Suarez could score on goal, he always had three defenders next to him, which forced him to shoot from very weak positions.
I agree with what the Barcelona fans say, like the defense was extremely weak, Pique with his mistakes, Ter stegen with a lot of balls to save (2 goals at Anfield, mainly because of him), as well as Jordi Alba, but NO THE ATTACK wasn't brilliant at all, in all the famous eliminations from 2016-21, (2-0 atletico, 4-0 PSG/ 3-0 Juve, 3-0 Roma, 4-0 Liverpool, 8-2 Bayern, 4-1 PSG), you conceded a lot of goals and only lost 0-0, it's not like you lost a match 5-3, you scored 3 goals but the defense being very weak, you couldn't qualify further and from here my obsession with this problem, because you still had Suarez and Neymar and the goat in the team.

I don't think you really addressed any of my points.

Barcelona had a mental edge over Real Madrid for years which is why we did well even without Messi. We were probably the only team in Europe that didn't feel pressure versus them, and in La Liga we rarely faced teams that would press us up high collectively and had the quality to get away with it.

Our squad simply wasn't built to play well in Europe from 2017 and onwards. We didn't adapt at all.

The best teams in Europe had midfielders who could cover a lot of ground and play their way out of a high press. Usually had athletic defenders who weren't a liability vs. quick forwards, and also had quick forwards up top which meant pressing them up high meant leaving a lot of space behind which could prove to be fatal.

What did Barcelona have? Slow defenders who were toast once they went up 1v1 versus a quick forward. A midfield that void of any athleticism and struggled playing their way out, and an attacking line that was slow with the exception of Ousmane Dembele who was always injured or useless for the most part.

It's not a video game where having three fantastic attacking players could cover the flaws of your collective that simply wasn't good enough.

 

[Andresito]

Don't they teach paragraphing in school nowadays? Ain't reading that wall of text

 

[companyofcules]

Don't they teach paragraphing in school nowadays? Ain't reading that wall of text

Better than one liners

 

[Mihai Stefan]

Don't they teach paragraphing in school nowadays? Ain't reading that wall of text

Sorry brother, I'm going to change right now through some edits, I haven't been on a forum before, until now.

 

[Maradona37]

Sorry brother, I'm going to change right now through some edits, I haven't been on a forum before, until now.

Looks a lot better mate - nice one. Glad you took my advice. Got more chance of people reading your thoughts now.

 

[Mihai Stefan]

Looks a lot better mate - nice one. Glad you took my advice. Got more chance of people reading your thoughts now.

Thanks brother, you are a real one, because you spoke to me nicely and did not directly comment negatively.

 

[Maradona37]

Thanks brother, you are a real one, because you spoke to me nicely and did not directly comment negatively.

No problem, I wouldn't be a dick for no reason to a new member.

For what it is worth - I didn't give a 'like' to your first post because I disagree with a lot of it. However, I can see some of your points and I really respect the effort you put into making the post, even if I don't generally share the same view.

 

[Mihai Stefan]

No problem, I wouldn't be a dick for no reason to a new member.

For what it is worth - I didn't give a 'like' to your first post because I disagree with a lot of it. However, I can see some of your points and I really respect the effort you put into making the post, even if I don't generally share the same view.

If you don't mind and you have enough time, you can explain to me why you don't agree with some points of view, after all, we are human and we learn from mistakes, maybe I can't see a perspective that someone else has.

 

[companyofcules]

Well the truth is always a bit in the middle of the arguments but Argentina prooved with an old Messi that our team was simply inferior even if we ignore the total collapse after Messi.
Also the problems of Argentina were linked with what Donak said, once the system collapses you get exposed. And they had very few liabilities vs France compared to our shit house. Mainly Ottamendi. That was almost close enough. Their mids were absolute bullies, ours were fat cats and we can compare left and right but you can't ignore that.

 

[Maradona37]

If you don't mind and you have enough time, you can explain to me why you don't agree with some points of view, after all, we are human and we learn from mistakes, maybe I can't see a perspective that someone else has.

It's not a mistake man - I am not saying you are wrong and I am right. And to be fair, Messi is my favourite active player, so i am probably biased.

I might go through a few of the points tomorrow or the day after. I have talked a lot already about Messi on here so talking about other subjects right now.

As one example, to take one comment you made, I wouldn't really agree that Ronaldo often 'scored out of nowhere' - much of the time he was reliant on service. But that's just a difference of opinion.

 

[DonAK]

By the way, I'm not saying that Messi doesn't have any fault. He didn't play up to his standards in some of our exits. Sometimes not even close to what was expected.

Just pointing out that Messi even on a one-man mission simply wasn't good enough because the collective was outdated according to what was required to compete and win vs. the best teams in Europe back then.

And when Neymar left so did any individual brilliance we had in addition to Messi as Suarez' record in Europe is actually one of the worst for a striker I have seen.

 

[Mihai Stefan]

By the way, I'm not saying that Messi doesn't have any fault. He didn't play up to his standards in some of our exits. Sometimes not even close to what was expected.

Just pointing out that Messi even on a one-man mission simply wasn't good enough because the collective was outdated according to what was required to compete and win vs. the best teams in Europe back then.

And when Neymar left so did any individual brilliance we had in addition to Messi as Suarez' record in Europe is actually one of the worst for a striker I have seen.

I understand your point of view but Messi from 2019 is absolutely an exception for the 2016-21 period, I'm talking especially about that UCL campaign because, whether it suits us or not, the UCL is the most important competition to guide you when it comes it's about the power of a club.

I don't want to take away Suarez's defense, but what claim do you have for him to score goals, when he is the only striker who is permanently surrounded by at least two or more defenders? Now do you understand my point of view when I say that Messi must necessarily keep his position? To stretch those lines of defense a little more, to create a space where you can pass decisively, dribble or even shoot at the goal.

I don't want to point out that Messi wasn't good enough in 2019, what bothers me is that he can't do the job in two positions and expect to get results, in the end, an extremely well-organized team, with a plan well set up, just like someone said above, some well set up systems will always beat us or turn us back.

Messi's only fault, I can only say that he doesn't keep his position, which could create a lot of positioning and adaptability problems between the players, I DON'T WANT to insinuate for a second that Messi wasn't good enough.

I want to say more that if he keeps his attacking position, near the box, he could be many times more dangerous than this Messi who is standing in the middle of the field, waiting for a pass and who does not want to run after the ball at all, to defend or press.

Why do I think this Messi is ineffective? Because NO MATTER how good a pass given by Messi is, it still leaves you in a 1v1 situation when you have to dribble the defender of the respective team, and if you are not Neymar or even Messi himself, you cannot respond to this challenge at all.

When Barcelona played that 4-4-2 (2017/18 season with Valverde as a coach) with Messi and Suarez in attack, Barcelona played the worst football I have seen in a very long time, why? Effectively you had Sergi Roberto and Iniesta in the wings, with no possible speed, and Messi surrounded by midfielders in the center, trying to create opportunities for Suarez who was constantly surrounded by 3 defenders, nothing good could come out of there.

What solution would I say would be good? I would do exactly what Real Madrid did in the 2016-18 period, I would make Messi a full time attacker, just like Real did with Ronaldo, and the whole team to create opportunities for him, more chances to give he goal and score on these occasions, than to leave Suarez and miss them all, not to mention that after Neymar left, I swear to God, all our attacking power was gone.

 

[Maradona37]

I get what you're partly saying there - you're essentially saying Messi plays too deep and is passing to players in advanced areas who aren't him when he'd be the most effective in forward lines. Essentially, the problem is Messi cannot pass to himself and finish. He can't dribble all the time. He's a victim of being so good in deeper areas AND in advanced areas, which is rather unique and shows what a true GOAT he is.