Does messi have any fault?

[serghei]

Flaws on the pitch, or as a human? On the pitch he has very few flaws, and most of those are related to his leadership and poor workrate, off the ball he didn't do much post Pep. Not much over that, his skills on the ball are unparalleled from what I've seen. His leadership came to him later in his career, well post 30s. He didn't have that when he was at the peak of his ability. Or if he did, he didn't show it often enough.

 

[Maradona37]

What people sometimes don't acknowledge with Messi when comparing him to Ronaldo (especially in the CL) is the expectation on Messi is higher. Ronaldo had a good (not exceptional) all-round game before the three in a row, but in the three in a row he was tasked mainly with playing the box and being supplied. Whereas Messi was always expected to be three players in one - dribbler, playmaker and goalscorer.

It just seems unfair that people say he was worse than Ronaldo in CL due to lesser goalscoring - he often had to play much deeper and had much bigger playmaking duties. Plus Ronaldo generally underperformed in CL Finals and was bailed out, whereas Messi was MOTM or very close in his three CL Finals.

I am not trying to turn it into a Messi-Ronaldo debate. But he is constantly measured by Ronaldo's goal stats in the CL while overlooking he had so much more to his game than Ronaldo did. He had his poor performances and his work-rate should definitely have been better, but there were times when he was setting players up and they were squandering the opportunities. In the famous Liverpool fiasco, Dembele should have made it 4-0 from his chance, and then Messi created two or three chances at Anfield too. There was only so much he could do there.

Fair enough on the Roma debacle. He underperformed there. But like others have said, the system and team was so fundamentally flawed at the time from what I saw. Now Messi detractors will argue that the system was flawed precisely due to having to accommodate Messi's lack of pressing and work-rate, but I don't think it's anywhere near that simple.

 

[Ter Stature]

A good team will win over a shit team with a few exceptional players, that was the same problem TODAY.
You have to have good defenders and goal keepers, but barca bosses and scouts are like twitter hype men who think defensive doesn't matter and don't understand real football or care

 

[serghei]

Yes, I can agree with that partly, but Messi also became a problem regarding the Amigo culture that was to blame inside the club. In the end, Barca did not reap the full benefits of his talent. Messi needed a manager. After Pep he only got yes men to keep him happy by giving him more influence. That's nice in a low pressure environment, everyone is happy to smash teams in La Liga using the talent in the team.

But... in CL... it backfired often. You need more cohesiveness in CL, more mentality, more discipline to get wins.

 

[Maradona37]

Yes, I can agree with that partly, but Messi also became a problem regarding the Amigo culture that was to blame inside the club. In the end, Barca did not reap the full benefits of his talent. Messi needed a manager. After Pep he only got yes men to keep him happy by giving him more influence. That's nice in a low pressure environment, everyone is happy to smash teams in La Liga using the talent in the team.

But... in CL... it backfired often. You need more cohesiveness in CL, more mentality, more discipline to get wins.

Fair enough - that is a reasonable point.

Barca should have won more CLs - they were a better team than RM for many years and it's a travesty Real won 4 and Barca only 3 in 2008/2009-2017/2018 era. They did destroy RM in the league though and that counts for plenty too.

 

[serghei]

Yeah, CL is an issue. It's a dent in his legacy to win 2/4 during Pep, and 1/8 after him. It's a huge difference and it shows the major influence that Pep had over getting the best out of Messi in CL.

 

[Maradona37]

Yeah, CL is an issue. It's a dent in his legacy to win 2/4 during Pep, and 1/8 after him. It's a huge difference and it shows the major influence that Pep had over getting the best out of Messi in CL.

True. He and Barca should have won it more. There is a decent argument though that when Messi underperformed nobody really 'bailed him out', unlike a certain someone with the Galacticos.

However, Messi played with brilliant Barca teams. It just feels like there weren't many times where he played poorly and then someone took over and got him out of a hole (as rudimentary as that sounds). Maybe the best example is Neymar's performance in the 6-1 game against PSG. Messi definitely played second fiddle to Neymar's wonderful performance that night.

But that was one game, and it was a R16 game. Then Barca reverted to normal next round and were eliminated.

It is weird though his CL record. It just feels like there was some sort of mental block for Messi and Barca. It took Guardiola many years to win it again himself after 2011, so these things happen to the absolute best.

EDIT: there were also some monumental fuck ups. No way should Inter and Chelsea have got through in 2010 and 2012 respectively.

 

[serghei]

There's fuck-ups due to bad luck, but not after Pep really. We didn't deserve it in any season bar 2015 when we did win it. Outplayed by Atletico 2 times on Calderon, 4-0ed by Liverpool, 3-0 by Roma, 3-0 by Juventus, 4-0ed by Bayern. That's not bad luck, that's bad performance in high-pressure games, one after another.

 

[Maradona37]

There's fuck-ups due to bad luck, but not after Pep really. We didn't deserve it in any season bar 2015 when we did win it. Outplayed by Atletico 2 times on Calderon, 4-0ed by Liverpool, 3-0 by Roma, 3-0 by Juventus, 4-0ed by Bayern. That's not bad luck, that's bad performance.

Yes agree.

The only one I would say should really have been different there was Liverpool. Dembele should have killed that at Camp Nou at the end. Still no excuse for the collapse at Anfield.

The hammering by Bayern in 2013, Messi wasn't fit. But yes, he has to take some share of responsibility for the other capitulations. Anything else does him a disservice as he's the greatest player ever for me (he or Maradona) and to be the best ever you have to be judged by strict standards. He and the club underperformed in the CL post Pep, there's no getting away from it.

 

[Maradona37]

Also I reread and thought more about OP, and it makes a good amount of sense. There's a lot of fair points raised.

I would add two caveats though:

1) I personally liked when Messi dropped deeper and tried to be more creative, and 2) (and leading on from that), I think the OP, while very good and insightful, is a little over simplistic in pinning most of the flaws of the Barca system mainly on Messi's movement and positioning.

But like company of cules said earlier, the truth is likely somewhere in the middle. Messi is really a victim of not being able to clone himself because a Messi playmaker and a Messi attacker/goalscorer would be a better combination than whoever he could combine with from deeper and playing into attacking areas.

 

[soul24rage]

It's simple.

If Messi had Papa Perez and not Bartomeu/Rossell, he would have won more CLs.

 

[Mihai Stefan]

I didn't want to direct this topic in the direction of Messi vs Ronaldo, but I had to make this mention. What I want to say for the first time about Maradona, is that I personally never considered Messi, "the goat" for his playmaking attributes, I don't want to seem like I'm insensible or something, it's fine when he dribbles two people and he gives a good goal pass, but assists, if you can put them as playmaking, are a little different from "creating opportunities". I like when Messi gives some assists for his attacking teammates, what I can't stand is when he takes the ball from the middle to create opportunities when the midfielders should do this.

When I say that Messi is the goat, I'm referring to that specific period from 2009-15, when he was the best striker in the world, I'm not referring to playmaking work he does, because I'm not interested in this in a forward (RW/CF), right? Why should I say that Koeman is better than Maldini because he can do forward work and have the most goals as a defender? But do you think I would buy a defender to give me goals? Same with Messi and Ronaldo, I'm not interested in Messi creating from midfield, I'm interested in him scoring goals whenever he has the opportunity. I can't forget that Messi from 2011-13, who score every week of the year, or at least make some assits for Pedro/Villa.

I will never blame Iniesta when he missed the opportunity vs Buffon in that match with Juventus in the UCL quarterfinals in 2017, why should I blame him? He's a central midfielder who can't finish, is he paid for that? Why blame Jordi Alba for missing the opportunity in 2019 with Liverpool at Anfield? Is he simply a full-back who misses an opportunity, can't finish it, is he paid for it? The same can be said about Rakitic/Coutinho, because they used to play on the wing sometimes, Countinho as a position, Rakitic as a substitute for Messi when he leaves his position free.

I can understand when the fans blamed Higuain/Lautaro Martinez/Suarez for some far too easy occasions, but why the midfielders or full-backs? What would you like him to do? I hope I am not misunderstood here.

I am talking more about this position of Messi than anything else because at the end of the game, football is played on goals, whether it suits us or not, not on created chances or dribbles. And messi, playing in a position closer to the goal, can score more goals or assists, through those exceptional dribbles or passes.

When Ronaldo left Real in 2018, ALTHOUGH Real had 95% of the same players, they struggled a lot for 2 seasons in a row in the European Cups (19/20, 20/21 seasons), why? It's very simple, your main source of goals is gone, even if you have the same midfielders and defenders, you can no longer score.

And to point out some of Sergei's ideas, he is absolutely right, Messi probably saw himself with a lot of power and did what he wanted, no one and nothing could comment on him or tell him that he doesn't do some things right , how are some Barcelona fans even on this forum, without any upset, whatever Messi does, they think it's divine and that he always knows 100% what he's doing, why? Just because he's Messi and that's it.

As Serghei also said, in LaLiga, things were going very well, you beat Betis 4-0, Mallorca 6-0, and when a serious UCL match came, PSG gave it to you 4-0, effectively , I was dumbfounded in front of the TV when I saw 4-0, I couldn't believe it for a second.

 

[Maradona37]

I agree with your last two paragraphs mate - believe it or not I don't like Messi as a person and I have zero celebrity worship in me. I simply defend him as a footballer as he's the best I have seen, at least since Maradona anyway. But I definitely don't think he's divine or untouchable or any of that stuff. He's just a normal guy who happens to have an amazing gift - a gift which a lot of people care about because it is in a field that's one of the most popular in the world. He's no better than you or I and anyone who thinks he is has a celebrity fetish. If others here do see him as a deity that's fair enough, but I don't. So hopefully I can assess him purely as a footballer.

For the rest of the stuff, I will have to respectfully disagree. I don't think footballers are so simplistic that you have designated midfielders, forwards etc. Even Michels and Cruyff Total Football taught us that. A player who can do so many things to an all-time great standard will always be a huge weapon. I would never want to dull Messi's creative and playmaking artistry just to turn him into a goalscorer like Ronaldo. 1 because being a creator and playmaker makes him such a better player. You said goals are what matter not chances or dribbles, but goals don't exist in a vacuum; they are the end result of passes, dribbles, shots, crosses, those are the chains that create goals. And 2, because I also see football as an art not just about winning, and I always think teams get extra points for being great to watch as well as winning. It's why I never rated Mourinho alongside Pep, as Mourinho generally wins playing cheapskate, rudimentary football despite the resources at his disposal. Similar with Messi - a major reason I rate him so highly is not his goals, or his trophies. In fact I care very little about those sometimes. The main reason I rate him is his affinity with a football, his genius attributes, and the fact he's such a wizard of the game. That stuff naturally translates to goals and trophies, but the fact he doesn't have as many trophies (in the CL) as he should doesn't diminish for me his sheer artistry with a ball.

But yeah, to go back to the last two paragraphs. I agree that he had too much power in the dressing room, and I also agree that it's much harder to beat strong teams in the CL than beat up on smaller teams in La Liga. Though ultimately you have to be consistent through 38 games to win a league title too. So you cannot just take for granted you will beat easily 'Betis and Mallorca' because if you do you come unstuck. However, I do see that point.

We just disagree really - you want Messi the ruthless goalscorer all the time. I want a combination of that and the playmaker, because for me the playmaker enhances the other players around him and can elevate a team, even if it didn't always work that way in practice.

Not saying you're wrong to want that Messi, just that - for me - it would detract from him as a player if he drilled down on goals or final third actions and assists, and stayed in said final third all the time.

 

[Mihai Stefan]

I agree with your last two paragraphs mate - believe it or not I don't like Messi as a person and I have zero celebrity worship in me. I simply defend him as a footballer as he's the best I have seen, at least since Maradona anyway. But I definitely don't think he's divine or untouchable or any of that stuff. He's just a normal guy who happens to have an amazing gift - a gift which a lot of people care about because it is in a field that's one of the most popular in the world. He's no better than you or I and anyone who thinks he is has a celebrity fetish. If others here do see him as a deity that's fair enough, but I don't. So hopefully I can assess him purely as a footballer.

For the rest of the stuff, I will have to respectfully disagree. I don't think footballers are so simplistic that you have designated midfielders, forwards etc. Even Michels and Cruyff Total Football taught us that. A player who can do so many things to an all-time great standard will always be a huge weapon. I would never want to dull Messi's creative and playmaking artistry just to turn him into a goalscorer like Ronaldo. 1 because being a creator and playmaker makes him such a better player. You said goals are what matter not chances or dribbles, but goals don't exist in a vacuum; they are the end result of passes, dribbles, shots, crosses, those are the chains that create goals. And 2, because I also see football as an art not just about winning, and I always think teams get extra points for being great to watch as well as winning. It's why I never rated Mourinho alongside Pep, as Mourinho generally wins playing cheapskate, rudimentary football despite the resources at his disposal. Similar with Messi - a major reason I rate him so highly is not his goals, or his trophies. In fact I care very little about those sometimes. The main reason I rate him is his affinity with a football, his genius attributes, and the fact he's such a wizard of the game. That stuff naturally translates to goals and trophies, but the fact he doesn't have as many trophies (in the CL) as he should doesn't diminish for me his sheer artistry with a ball.

But yeah, to go back to the last two paragraphs. I agree that he had too much power in the dressing room, and I also agree that it's much harder to beat strong teams in the CL than beat up on smaller teams in La Liga. Though ultimately you have to be consistent through 38 games to win a league title too. So you cannot just take for granted you will beat easily 'Betis and Mallorca' because if you do you come unstuck. However, I do see that point.

We just disagree really - you want Messi the ruthless goalscorer all the time. I want a combination of that and the playmaker, because for me the playmaker enhances the other players around him and can elevate a team, even if it didn't always work that way in practice.

Not saying you're wrong to want that Messi, just that - for me - it would detract from him as a player if he drilled down on goals or final third actions and assists, and stayed in said final third all the time.

To be honest, when I was younger, I also had your mentality, that I honestly don't care about goals or trophies, but the idea is that you can't neglect them in the way that you don't care at all. I also used to be a die hard fan, and I used to go on Facebook groups, like at that time, when I was 10-14 years old, and say that the Ballon d'Or is a joke and that Messi should take it every year, but in the end, as I said above, it's going to be who scores goals and who takes trophies, it's just the way it is.


And if you don't believe me, you can look at every year when Messi won the ballon d'or, and look to see what his team did in the UCL that year or what numbers he has in the UCL that year. More than likely, you will see that every year he won he won an important trophy with Barcelona/Argentina and he had an extremely good performance in winning that trophy.


When it comes to Johan Cruyff, let's remember that he also taught us through his style of play, how important positioning is on the field, through those triangles of quick and short passes between players, even Thierry Henry said in - an interview for Sky Sports, that Guordiola always told him what to do, mostly to make runs at defenders, to create space, to always reach the line of the field, to create width in attack. Cruyff, at the same time, said that everything about defense is about the space you want to defend, "if I want to defend the whole room, I am the worst defender", "if I have to defend only this small part, I am the best" , and that's why Cruyff always followed a game philosophy that included spaces, you can search on the net, please.

Honestly, I don't know if I made myself extremely clear about Messi and playmaking. I want him to continue dribbling and passing between the lines, but to do it from his forward position, not to go to the middle of the field, I also wrote above that he scores many goals when he dribbles two opponents and then offers a great pass, but he does it on the last third of the field, as well as the distance, a little above the surface of the square, he does not have to wait for any ball in the semicircle in the middle.

 

[Maradona37]

To be honest, when I was younger, I also had your mentality, that I honestly don't care about goals or trophies, but the idea is that you can't neglect them in the way that you don't care at all. I also used to be a die hard fan, and I used to go on Facebook groups, like at that time, when I was 10-14 years old, and say that the Ballon d'Or is a joke and that Messi should take it every year, but in the end, as I said above, it's going to be who scores goals and who takes trophies, it's just the way it is.


And if you don't believe me, you can look at every year when Messi won the ballon d'or, and look to see what his team did in the UCL that year or what numbers he has in the UCL that year. More than likely, you will see that every year he won he won an important trophy with Barcelona/Argentina and he had an extremely good performance in winning that trophy.


When it comes to Johan Cruyff, let's remember that he also taught us through his style of play, how important positioning is on the field, through those triangles of quick and short passes between players, even Thierry Henry said in - an interview for Sky Sports, that Guordiola always told him what to do, mostly to make runs at defenders, to create space, to always reach the line of the field, to create width in attack. Cruyff, at the same time, said that everything about defense is about the space you want to defend, "if I want to defend the whole room, I am the worst defender", "if I have to defend only this small part, I am the best" , and that's why Cruyff always followed a game philosophy that included spaces, you can search on the net, please.

Honestly, I don't know if I made myself extremely clear about Messi and playmaking. I want him to continue dribbling and passing between the lines, but to do it from his forward position, not to go to the middle of the field, I also wrote above that he scores many goals when he dribbles two opponents and then offers a great pass, but he does it on the last third of the field, as well as the distance, a little above the surface of the square, he does not have to wait for any ball in the semicircle in the middle.

I understand what you mean mate - you want him to do his passing and dribbling closer to goal where it will do most damage. No problem.

Yeah I know it isn't as simple as I claimed about Cruyff. He was big on positioning too. He was about spaces as you say. But at the same time he did like players to be able to do many things. I do get your point however that you want Messi to stick to a more regimented area/position.

Also, I don't know if you get the impression I am young or something - I am 42. I am also not really saying that goals and trophies aren't important, of course they are. It's just that I personally take much more into account than that. Haaland will win many trophies for instance and might even eventually outscore Messi but will he ever be 1/50th of the footballer Messi is? No chance. Granted that's an extreme example but you get my point.

Overall, I am not saying you're wrong - maybe Messi closer to the goal does the damage and getting actual midfielders playing rather than Messi dropping in as a quasi one would have been for the best. I am just saying that what I love about Messi is that he's so much of an all-round player, in addition to his end product at the top of the par. I would never wanna dull his creative or playmaking sensibilities. But you personally would like to see him always near the goal and doing his brilliance there. It doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong, it's just a difference in opinion. Sometimes you'll be right (Messi might lose the ball in midfield leading to a counter) and sometimes I will be right (Messi might play a beautiful cross field pass from midfield that opens up space). It just really depends how he is used.

But overall, I do get your point. As for the Ballon d'Or, it really is a bit of a popularity contest mate. The team of the year was always full of La Liga players even if a player from another league did better in an instance. It did feel like they just gave the Golden Ball to the biggest scorer and most famous player in the CL winning team often. I don't pay much attention to it, even though Messi has won the most. Ultimately, individual prizes in a team game make little sense. I don't need Golden Ball trophies to tell me that Messi is by far (alongside Ronaldinho, Zidane and R9, but better than them) the biggest talent and best player since Maradona. Too many people care too much about it like it's the holy grail, when it's actually informed by politics much of the time.

But that rant about the BDO aside, all I am saying is that I would like to see Messi come deeper and involve himself in the game as much as possible. When you are as talented as he is you can be the source of the play as well as the tip or spear. But I fully respect your POV and maybe you are right that Barca would have been more successful in the CL had Messi used his biggest weapons in attack all the time. It's a tough one to say, As I said earlier, a playmaking Messi feeding a goalscoring Messi would be quite something.