Respekt_III
Anti-everything
We don't even have grass here atm. So any grass will. Do. Nicely.
Ernesto Valverde
- Thread starter Messigician
- Start date
We don't even have grass here atm. So any grass will. Do. Nicely.
behindbrowneyes
Well-known member
Not gonna wish for a strong Real or Atlético side, but their poor performances are not good for people who want to see Valverde gone. Having 3 losses after 11 games is very bad. One could say the smaller teams in La Liga got better but truth is BIG3 are struggling and won't stand a chance to win CL if they continue to play this badly.
Only way for Valverde to be gone is some important players throwing a tantrum due to bad performances. Players can't be happy after humiliations in CL and will have to realise that there is no way to win it with Valverde. The team is in a downward spiral and although the squad isn't perfect it is much better than they play atm.
I honestly have no idea how to rate managers (or how anyone can) before they join us. They either fit or they dont, no way to tell before (other than the very obvious cases). Circumstances are more important than quality (who can tell anyway) - the additional coachig staff has a big role as well.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
People were saying the same after Van Gaal being fired in 2000, btw.
More about it later...
Crujff's era is marking a new era of Barca, when we started to play Crujff's/Dutch/Total-football.
So, let's look at coaches since then.
Also, with connections, I have expanded it to:
1. former Barca's player
2. connected with a club either as a Bteam coach, being an assistant, director and similar
3. Dutch players/coaches since Barca's football has it's roots in Dutch total-football. And since all Dutch clubs, coaches and players play in a total-football way from the early age, then imo we could easily say that: Dutch coaches are Barca's DNA coaches.
Now, let's check all coaches since Crujff:
1. Crujff 1988-1996, a former Barca player and a Dutch. Won 4 La Ligas in 8 seasons and won Barca's first Champions league in 1992.
2. when Crujff was sacked, Carles Rexach stepped in as a caretaker coach for 2 Months. Rexach was Barca's player from 1965 to 1981.
He worked as a Bteam coach at Barca. He was already a caretaker after Aragones left in 1987.
He was a caretaker for the 2nd time after Crujff was sacked.
And later, he will be a coach for the 3rd time in 2001 and 2002, after Serra Ferrer was sacked.
3. 1996 Bobby Robson: he didn't have any connections with Barca. He stayed for one season and Barca hired Van Gaal. He didn't win La Liga. He won Cup winners cup though.
4. 1997-2000: Van Gaal. He stayed for 3 seasons, and won 2 La ligas in his first 2 years, after 3 years without La Liga success (Crujff 1995, Crujff 1996, Robson 1997)
The pressure was huge on him and he was fighting with media all the time. He left a club in a summer of 2000 when he lost La Liga in his 3rd season to Deportivo, plus we were naive in a Champions league.
Barca wanted better results and eventually after firing Van Gaal, we didn't win La Liga for the next 4 years.
5. 2000 Serra Ferrer: he was working as a director at Barca for 3 years before that. He was sacked in April of 2002.
6. Charlie Rexach stepped in again: He improved our team compared to Ferrer, finished 4th in La Liga (in the last few rounds after getting a job) but barely qualified for a CL in the last round due to Rivaldo's scissor kick goal in the 90th minute against Valencia for 3:2.
He again finished 4th in 2002' season and was sacked.
7. Barca again hired Van Gaal in 2002', whom we fired 2 seasons before, since we thought that 2 La Ligas in 3 years were a bad result.
But Van Gaal's 2nd stint wasn't good.
He got rid of Rivaldo and bought 2 new playmakers in Mendieta and Riqulme, who both disappointed and left a club after 1 season.
He was also fired in January of 2003'.
8. Barca hired a caretaker De La Cruz, a former Barca player, who stayed only for a few matches until we hired Antic.
9. 2003: Radomir Antic, took over. He was a Serbian coach from La Liga who coached lots of Spanish teams and won a double with Atletico in 1996'.
He took over when a team was around 10th place (Van Gaal). A team improved under him, but we managed to climb up only to a 6th place and we barely qualified for Uefa Cup.
We had elections in that summer and Laporta, who won, decided to turn the page, fired Antic and hired Rijkaard.
10. Rijkaard 2003-2008: a Dutch player, stayed for 5 seasons. Won 2 La Ligas in 2005 and 2006, after 5 seasons without trophies for Barca. He also won our 2nd Champions league in a history in 2006.
His last 2 seasons were weaker in 2007 and 2008.
11. Pep: 2008-2012: a former player from Crujff's Dream team. Stayed for 4 years, won 3 La Ligas and 2 CL titles.
12. Tito 2013: started footballing career as a player at La Masia. As a coach, he was Pep's assistant. And took over him in 2012-13 season. Won La Liga.
13. Tata 2014: zero connections with Barca. Went all over the place in the 2nd part of season. Didn't win La Liga.
14: Lucho 2014-2017: a former Barca player. Won 2 Ligas in his first 2 seasons and a CL in 2015.
** We could add Unzue also, a former Barca player and Lucho's assistant
15. EV 2017-2020: a former Barca player. Won 2 La Ligas in his first 2 seasons.
So, since Crujff, Barca had 15 coaches:
Former players:
1. Crujff
2. Rexach
3. Rexach again
4. De La Cruz
5. Pep
6. Tito
7. Lucho
8. Unzue
9. EV
Directors/assistants at a club:
1. Serra Ferrer
2. Tito Vilanova
3. Unzue
Dutch coaches:
1. Crujff
2. Van Gaal
3. Van Gaal again
3. Rijkaard
No connections with Barca:
1. Robson 1996
2. Antic 2003
3. Tata 2014
So, out of 15 coaches (Van Gaal twice, Rexach twice but 3 times in total during his career, De La Cruz as a caretaker), only 3 coaches didn't have connections with Barca and were neither Dutch.
= Robson, Antic and Tata.
The interesting thing that NONE of those 3 guys won La Liga and ALL of them were fired after the 1st season.
On the other hand, an interesting stat:
Dutch coaches:
Crujff 8 years=4 La Ligas, 1 CL
Rijkaard 5 years=2 La Ligas, 1 CL
Van Gaal 4 years=2 La Ligas
Other successful coaches, former players:
Pep 4 years=3 La Ligas, 2 CLs
Lucho 3 years=2 La Ligas, 1 CL
So, in the last 33 years, since Crujff, Dutch coaches were here for 17 years. And they won 8 La Ligas and 3 CLs.
I know, each coach is a different story, but in the last 33 years, ALL outsiders who coached Barca were fired and didn't win La Ligas/CLs.
Those 3 coaches weren't clowns.
Robson came to Barca in 1996 after winning 2 Portuguese titles in a row with Porto, plus he won Uefa Cup in 1981 with Ipswich Town.
Antic won a double with Atletico in 1995/96 (against Crujff's Barca).
Tata Martinez turned Newell from a relegation side into Argentina champions, plus he reached semis of Copa Libertadores with his weak side.
After reading all of this, would you as a president hire someone as Gallardo?
I surely wouldn't.
Remember, 0 La Liga titles for our last 3 outsider coaches.
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Messigician
Senior Member
Very good points, sounds like you are in favour of Koemamin then BBZ?
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Pep is obviously the best pick.
But it is questionable how his 2nd stint would look like.
Van Gaal and Stoichkov were poor in their 2nd stints at Barca.
Klopp, it remains to be seen whether he can actually win a league title.
But even then, he needed several years for that.
Xavi?
Way too soon, way too unproven for me.
Sarri, Tuchel and similar jokes, no need to comment.
Wenger? Lol. The best joke ever.
What is left? Conte, Ancelotti and weird Italian coaches.
Or a rookie Ten Hag maybe.
Pimienta, I am not as romantic as some fans here.
There aren't too many options at all.
Also, I am not in favor of: everyone would be better than XX.
At Man Utd, people wanted Fregie gone in his last years.
1. Moyes came=a disaster
2. they hired Giggs=the same
3. they hired Van Gaal=he couldn't help
4. they hired Mou=even worse
People said: nobody could be worse than Mou.
5. they hired their hero Solskjaer.
Of course that he is even way worse than Van Gaal and Mou.
At Barca we fired Van Gaal under similar ideas in 2000.
Then we had Ferrer, Rexach, Van Gaal again, De La Cruz, Antic who were even worse.
We consolidated in the 6th attempt, lol, with Rijkaard.
I wouldn't sack EV for anyone, like majority of our fans.
I would sack him only for a few coaches.
Koeman is one of them.
Gallardo is not, at least for me.
I hope we won't need 6 coaches again to win La Liga after EV, like in 2000's.
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behindbrowneyes
Well-known member
Not fully convinced either but I believe that players who got schooled by Cruyff and want to succeed as coaches with Ajax/Barca-style have issues outside this model.
Just a few examples:
Frank De Boer: 4 league titles with Ajax, signed a 3y-contract with Inter and got sacked after 85 days. After Inter he signed a 3y-contract with Crystal Palace and got sacked after 10 weeks.
Frank Rijkaard: Don't know much about his time before Barca but he has won 2 leagues and 1 CL with Barcelona. After Barcelona he signed a 2y-contract with Galatasaray and got sacked after 1 year.
Lucho: No success with Roma, somewhat okay with Celta and then winning CL with Barca in a very impressive way.
Pep: Bit of an exception. Winning 2 CLs and being the coach of probably the best team ever. He has been successful with Bayern and plays nice successful football with City. Tbf, he had/has the backing from management to sign the players he needs to play the Ajax/Barcelona way. Still hasn't managed to win the CL apart from Barcelona though which was the big goal when Bayern and City signed him.
Skills of coaches are not really transferable from one team to another. Just because a coach has been successful with one team doesn't automatically mean he will have success in another team with probably another philosophy. Koeman's stint at Everton says little about how he would fare at Barcelona because circumstances are very different. Same with Valverde. He might be a good coach for teams like Athletic, Olympiakos but his pragmatic style won't win him a CL with Barcelona.
George_Costanza
Active member
Well, considering this current management/board (Rosellista) are anti-Cruyff and was stripped of Barcelona honorary president title, not sure why you post an essay justifying what you said based on Cruyff's influence when the current management distance itself from Cruyff's legacy.
First of all, Cruyff's influence and his connection with Barcelona didn't start in the 90s but in the 70s. Hence I knew someone like you will come up with some twisted stats. That's why 1980 is more appropriate if you want to play Cruyff's card.
But for your argument's sake, since Cruyff's 1996 we had 11 different managers and 5 of them are has nothing to do with Barcelona (that's almost half).
Bobby Robson
Louis van Gaal
Radomir Antic
Frank Rijkaard
Gerardo Martino
Why would you put any Dutch name under "Barca DNA" when they never played or worked for us? Louis van Gaal's style is totally different than Cruyff's. Cruyff's and Gaal didn't get along well and the main reason was the different style of football they preach.
Read what Cruyff said about Gaal's time at United which I think is relevant to Valverde too:
The former Barcelona coach, who has had a strained relationship with his Dutch compatriot Van Gaal, believes United do not dictate games as they should, insisting there is an onus to entertain the fans.
"He doesn't dominate. I like dominating football. Manchester doesn't play like that," he told Sky Sports News HQ.
Asked if he thought Van Gaal was too cautious, he said: "I don't think so, but it's strange that against strong teams they've got good results and with weak teams they've had difficulties. That's a strange situation.
"But the results I think are second. The game is first. Money is very important but always second. In England they play different, everybody has their own style. A mix of styles is always good.
"The most important part are the fans, that people going home are happy. It's their time off and you should give them something to enjoy."
MTL_Barca
Well-known member
Yeah that's true, although i don't know how much that's the case with Koeman as he seems to have a bit more of an pragmatic approach compared to some other coaches that play that kind of football so at least in theory he should adapt more easily. But always hard to judge that of course, i definitely see how that could be the case.
I also liked Phillip Cocu at PSV for example but he failed horribly in Turkey and is currently struggling in the Championship. But maybe he also just picked the wrong clubs
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MTL_Barca
Well-known member
RE: "Barca connection":
That's not the same for every guy that worked for Barca at some point though. Valverde for example was a barca player for 2 seasons and played like 20 games. Thats pretty much like hiring Paco Alcacer as a coach in 30 years because he has the "DNA".
That's not the same for every guy that worked for Barca at some point though. Valverde for example was a barca player for 2 seasons and played like 20 games. Thats pretty much like hiring Paco Alcacer as a coach in 30 years because he has the "DNA".
serghei
Senior Member
The point is not to get a manager who is better than Valverde. We can do and still end up with decent one at best. We can bring Quique Setien tomorrow and we'd improve from Valverde, but the aim can't be as low as improving from a tactically weak manager like Ernie.
The point here is to get a top manager. Someone who'd be able to come up against the Klops and don't look amateurish by comparison. And for that we need someone who is 2 levels above Valverde. We have no access to A tier. We need to get a manager from the B tier. Valverde is C or D tier. That's good enough to win leagues by regularly smashing the teams in La Liga, but not nearly good enough for what we want to do in Europe.
The question is if Koeman is tier B, or he is just a new Valverde. We need someone who is at the very least as good as Lucho was to feel a serious improvement from Valverde. Lucho is the benchmark to improve upon in the next appointment, not fucking Valverde.
There is a risk that Koeman is just as Valverde, only with more discipline and tenacity. If he is not a big improvement over Valverde in the tactical area, then he is not the manager we need.
The point here is to get a top manager. Someone who'd be able to come up against the Klops and don't look amateurish by comparison. And for that we need someone who is 2 levels above Valverde. We have no access to A tier. We need to get a manager from the B tier. Valverde is C or D tier. That's good enough to win leagues by regularly smashing the teams in La Liga, but not nearly good enough for what we want to do in Europe.
The question is if Koeman is tier B, or he is just a new Valverde. We need someone who is at the very least as good as Lucho was to feel a serious improvement from Valverde. Lucho is the benchmark to improve upon in the next appointment, not fucking Valverde.
There is a risk that Koeman is just as Valverde, only with more discipline and tenacity. If he is not a big improvement over Valverde in the tactical area, then he is not the manager we need.
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FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
Based on Koemans coaching history, he must be at best C. Most likely D.
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