Francesc "Tito" Vilanova

[Pepe Silvia]

If people want to delude themselves into thinking we have looked fantastic this season and don't need MAJOR changes, then have at it. I'm done in here.

 

[Mr Hulot]

I am in no position to read pages of oz187 posts, but I cannot seem to understand why he is trying to prove us that we play better without Messi. Should we sell him?

 

[evilhita666]

What concerns me the most is the apparent need for 11 superstars on the pitch to win matches... Time and time again we saw how the starting line-up consisted of the biggest names in the dressing room without any sense of purpose... Tito and Roura just put them together hoping they would win the match for them...

 

[Semi-Neutral]

If you want a performance based reason for this, here's one for you guys. When Messi doesn't play it may well weaken the attack, but it doesn't really matter that much. This is largely because the defense improves. In those 8 games above, the team conceded 2 goals while Messi was not playing. One of those goals was a consolation goal when they were already 4-0 up against Malaga. Against Vallodolid it was an 87th minute consolation when they were 2-0 up.

So is Messi at fault that we're conceding goals?

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

If people want to delude themselves into thinking we have looked fantastic this season and don't need MAJOR changes...

I don't think we need major changes in personnel (other than Montoya for Alves to give better crosses, better shots, and more positional discipline). We do need SOME changes in the system- the CF up front to pin the centerbacks so that Messi can do his false 9 thing, back to better pressing, and freedom for the other forward to leave the touchline when there is no need for width (or it is already being provided by Alba/Montoya).

 

[Flavia]

So is Messi at fault that we're conceding goals?

I can't understand people blaming Messi and not Tito, really. The defense improves when Messi doesn't play...

 

[oz187]

If people want to delude themselves into thinking we have looked fantastic this season and don't need MAJOR changes, then have at it. I'm done in here.

Whether we've looked fantastic is debateable, but we did equal the La Liga points record of 100 points. If winning La Liga is the aim we don't need major changes, we just need to do the same thing again.

I am in no position to read pages of oz187 posts, but I cannot seem to understand why he is trying to prove us that we play better without Messi. Should we sell him?

Not better, just different. It may be better in terms of results or worse but that is a complete unknown. If it was worse, it wouldn't be by much and would still be enough to win La Liga.

So is Messi at fault that we're conceding goals?

His low workrate is part of the reason. But when he plays the team as a whole is more focused on attack, whereas when he doesn't play there is more of a focus on defense.

 

[Flavia]

His low workrate is part of the reason. But when he plays the team as a whole is more focused on attack, whereas when he doesn't play there is more of a focus on defense.

Why it wasn't like that under Pep, then? The number of clean sheets when he was in charge were never as low as this season. And Messi also didn't track back, and even played more matches. The team is conceding more because Tito changed the system to a worse version, with almost no pressing. Nothing to do with Messi.

 

[ryuken]

So basically, when Messi play, Pique, Alves, Mascherano decide to play bad and score own goals like they are forwards? Messi is at fault for the most goal conceding in consecutive matches?

 

[XaviMessiGirl]

Messi has little or nothing to do with the defensive problems. Saying stuff like his low workrate this season is making everybody else lazy is a bit too far of a stretch. Defense is a completely different issue IMO.

 

[darthvader7888]

Why it wasn't like that under Pep, then? The number of clean sheets when he was in charge were never as low as this season. And Messi also didn't track back, and even played more matches. The team is conceding more because Tito changed the system to a worse version, with almost no pressing. Nothing to do with Messi.

This.

I can't understand people blaming Messi and not Tito, really. The defense improves when Messi doesn't play...

And this. Anyone blaming Messi for, well, anything, especially the defensive problems...

 

[oz187]

Why it wasn't like that under Pep, then?

You answered that yourself, Pep used a different system. It was a system where the team pressed high and narrowed the pitch. This meant the limitations of Messi having a low workrate, Busi not having much pace, Xavi and Iniesta not always tracking back as they should etc didn't get exposed as much.

Of course now things are more stretched, so Messi having a low workrate may well have significant impact on the defense. Cesc running 12-13K compared to Messi running 6-7K will obviously help the team defensively. But like I said, it's also partly due to the focus of the team. When Messi plays they know he can bail them out so they play a more attacking game, maybe take more risks, maybe even be a bit more complacent. When he doesn't play they know that conceding is even more of a problem so they play a more defensively secure game.

Even the way the opposition plays can change. Without Messi on the pitch the opposition may decide to take more risks, this may or may not work out. PSG did well, but Malaga suffered by playing a more open game.

 

[Zuess99]

Messi is a player, tito is the coach, if you claim messi was the problem which I think is utter garbage , tito should have handled it and made it right. This is why I think tito is an incompetent coach, he doesnt seem to have a solution to barca`s problems. Even after the 4-0 we went straight back to our ways. It all the coaches fault not the players. I dont blame mash, tito knows he is not a defender, if pique doesnt perform well he should be the one with a solution not pique.

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

Even the way the opposition plays can change. Without Messi on the pitch the opposition may decide to take more risks, this may or may not work out. PSG did well, but Malaga suffered by playing a more open game.

Just one note: I agree Malaga played a more open game, but Barça's goals didn't come from that openness or defensive mistakes, they were all quality: Pedro's brilliant run instantly spotted by Iniesta to set up Villa, Cesc's great dribble, Montoya's wonder 1-touch volley from distance off a clearance, and Iniesta's curler from outside the box. Malaga created many great chances themselves. The only "open" part of the game that may have led to Barça's goals was the lack of fouling (only 5 by each team all game, and no cards) that is usually a significant part of opponent's impeding Barça's fluidity. That is likely because the game was meaningless in standings, so nothing to gain from playing cynically, as well as reducing the chance of needless injury.

(*I still advocate a team foul rule, as in basketball, to prevent the unrestricted use of cynical fouling that kills fluid football)

 

[Flavia]

You answered that yourself, Pep used a different system. It was a system where the team pressed high and narrowed the pitch. This meant the limitations of Messi having a low workrate, Busi not having much pace, Xavi and Iniesta not always tracking back as they should etc didn't get exposed as much.

In a nutshell, the blame is on Tito for changing the pressing system, not on Messi. Anyway, blaming any forward for defensive mistakes is lame. Having two attacking fullbacks, makeshifts cbs and lack pressing is all on Tito.