J
jiopi
Guest
Yes, Levante, PSG, Bilbao, Betis this season. Other than that, logic.
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Francesc "Tito" Vilanova
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
You're definitely not using logic. Your examples aren't very good either. Levante was a victory, how is winning a game an example of not being able to compete in two games a week? PSG is not La Liga so is irrelevent to La Liga. Bilbao, Barca drew 2-2 last year with Messi playing, so not a good example to say they would deteriorate. Betis, they won both games this season so again not a good example of struggling.
Pepe Silvia
Active member
Sometimes a scoreline is decieving to overall performance. Some are failing to grasp what was obvious to majority of posters on here. That we look less impressive tactically and style wise and that w/o Messi we are a joke.
Zuess99
New member
lol yeah just a hero of mine. "мой герой"
Cule4life
The Culest
Any decently intelligent barca fan knows that this season without Messi we are a very unbalanced and poor side. The PSG was a perfect example of Barca's season-against decent teams we struggle to create chances without Messi. Pedro Alexis Villa all have been poor this season and we if we had to play with them all season we would have finished second in Liga and got knocked out in the 2nd round of CL. Tello is the only one who impressed but Tito in his infinite wisdom benched him. Without Messi we just pass the ball around but have no penetration. Nobody seems to like to take risks. When the ball is passed to Messi he's the only one who tries to dribble and create chances.
Regarding games without Messi most of these were against weak teams or when the pressure was off(Liga was won and we were knocked out of CL). Even then in these games we have looked very poor compared to when we have Messi.
Any person who cant see this is not worth arguing with.
Regarding games without Messi most of these were against weak teams or when the pressure was off(Liga was won and we were knocked out of CL). Even then in these games we have looked very poor compared to when we have Messi.
Any person who cant see this is not worth arguing with.
Maria
New member
Injured..the same as Busi.
0 shots on target until Messi came..but hey we beat Malaga without Messi.
BerkeleyBernie
Senior Member
Let me see if I got this right- you're saying "any person who doesn't see how I see it isn't worth arguing with." Okay, got it.
But you got it backwards- *with* Messi, Barça is an unbalanced side, designed to put the ball through Messi and account for his lack of movement off the ball. You take Messi out (for injury), and then you see how unbalanced it is. You don't just adjust to a new system overnight (and there wasn't really a new system, just the old system without Messi).
In the game against Malaga (who played well, if likely more open than they would have had there been more at stake), Barça's sans-Messi attack was far different than in previous games. You saw all the forwards overlapping and making runs through the middle, something they are apparently discouraged from doing when Messi is on the pitch. Pedro, in particular, made the kind of great runs that have been his bread and butter, constantly attacking the center of Malaga's backline (whereas he is confined to the touchline when Messi plays). That was far more balanced a team than we've seen most games this season. If Messi was out for an extended period, I'd suspect we'd see more of the same, adjusting to a much more fluid front three than there is when Messi is on the pitch.
Messi is a great player, no doubt, but there is also no doubt the team adjusts to Messi rather than the other way around. It's not about the quality of the rest of the team, which is fine, but the system. You can't play the "Messi Barça" system (as designed by Tito) without Messi; you need a different system, and time to adjust to it.
Even with Messi, I think there are better systems than what was used most games (i.e. putting a CF ahead of Messi, to occupy the centerbacks, as in the Sevilla 2nd half, and the 2nd leg vs Milan). I don't know why that wasn't used more.
Maria
New member
Barca - PSG: Valdes - Alves, Pique, Adriano, Alba - Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta - Pedro, Cesc, Villa
Result: 0 shots on target for 62 minutes
Barca-Malaga: Pinto - Montoya, Pique, Mascherano, Alba - Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta - Pedro, Cesc, Villa
Result: "Barça's sans-Messi attack was far different than in previous games. You saw all the forwards overlapping and making runs through the middle, something they are apparently discouraged from doing when Messi is on the pitch. Pedro, in particular, made the kind of great runs that have been his bread and butter, constantly attacking the center of Malaga's backline (whereas he is confined to the touchline when Messi plays). That was far more balanced a team than we've seen most games this season. If Messi was out for an extended period, I'd suspect we'd see more of the same, adjusting to a much more fluid front three than there is when Messi is on the pitch."
As you can see, there are some that believe that without Messi we wouldn't be anything(which isn't true, because without him we would still qualify for the CL) and there are others that chose to believe that with Messi on the pitch Pedro not only that he is discouraged to take shots, but he is also discouraged to make runs and overlaps(not Alexis though because we saw him doing those runs 100 times with Xavi ignoring him 98 times) and are giving as example a dead rubber against Malaga. But then again there is only so much that you can blame Messi for, especially when you're midfield is overrun by RM, Bayern or PSG and your defence is pitifull.
First of all it's not true that Messi doesn't adjust at the team, because he is(and you only need to see him how he plays with Argentina or how he helps our midfield when they're uncapable of creating chances-which had happend a lot this year). And second, we do have a problem of quality: Pedro has been dissapointing for 2 years now, Villa not only that misses easy chances, but he also has lost that second that makes a big difference in the elite, Alexis can't score more than 15 goals/season, Cesc doesn't seem the same player after Christmas, Iniesta glides through a season like he dribles his oponents and Xavi just isn't the same since the game against Santos. And we're left with Busquets(out of the front 6), who has been playing injured since January because Tito doesn't trust Song in the big games. and I won't even talk about the quality of our CBs.
Tito doesn't really agree with you though..otherwise we would have tried to buy a true CF. Instead we're probably letting go to our only natural goalscorer besides Messi and we will replace him with someone who is a LW. So that when Messi gets injured again we will see Cesc as a false 9 and use the same excuses if that system fails. So either you're wrong or Tito is wrong..
Result: 0 shots on target for 62 minutes
Barca-Malaga: Pinto - Montoya, Pique, Mascherano, Alba - Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta - Pedro, Cesc, Villa
Result: "Barça's sans-Messi attack was far different than in previous games. You saw all the forwards overlapping and making runs through the middle, something they are apparently discouraged from doing when Messi is on the pitch. Pedro, in particular, made the kind of great runs that have been his bread and butter, constantly attacking the center of Malaga's backline (whereas he is confined to the touchline when Messi plays). That was far more balanced a team than we've seen most games this season. If Messi was out for an extended period, I'd suspect we'd see more of the same, adjusting to a much more fluid front three than there is when Messi is on the pitch."
As you can see, there are some that believe that without Messi we wouldn't be anything(which isn't true, because without him we would still qualify for the CL) and there are others that chose to believe that with Messi on the pitch Pedro not only that he is discouraged to take shots, but he is also discouraged to make runs and overlaps(not Alexis though because we saw him doing those runs 100 times with Xavi ignoring him 98 times) and are giving as example a dead rubber against Malaga. But then again there is only so much that you can blame Messi for, especially when you're midfield is overrun by RM, Bayern or PSG and your defence is pitifull.
First of all it's not true that Messi doesn't adjust at the team, because he is(and you only need to see him how he plays with Argentina or how he helps our midfield when they're uncapable of creating chances-which had happend a lot this year). And second, we do have a problem of quality: Pedro has been dissapointing for 2 years now, Villa not only that misses easy chances, but he also has lost that second that makes a big difference in the elite, Alexis can't score more than 15 goals/season, Cesc doesn't seem the same player after Christmas, Iniesta glides through a season like he dribles his oponents and Xavi just isn't the same since the game against Santos. And we're left with Busquets(out of the front 6), who has been playing injured since January because Tito doesn't trust Song in the big games. and I won't even talk about the quality of our CBs.
Tito doesn't really agree with you though..otherwise we would have tried to buy a true CF. Instead we're probably letting go to our only natural goalscorer besides Messi and we will replace him with someone who is a LW. So that when Messi gets injured again we will see Cesc as a false 9 and use the same excuses if that system fails. So either you're wrong or Tito is wrong..
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Ode to Django
You're not even a real journalism
Let me see if I got this right- you're saying "any person who doesn't see how I see it isn't worth arguing with." Okay, got it.
But you got it backwards- *with* Messi, Barça is an unbalanced side, designed to put the ball through Messi and account for his lack of movement off the ball. You take Messi out (for injury), and then you see how unbalanced it is. You don't just adjust to a new system overnight (and there wasn't really a new system, just the old system without Messi).
In the game against Malaga (who played well, if likely more open than they would have had there been more at stake), Barça's sans-Messi attack was far different than in previous games. You saw all the forwards overlapping and making runs through the middle, something they are apparently discouraged from doing when Messi is on the pitch. Pedro, in particular, made the kind of great runs that have been his bread and butter, constantly attacking the center of Malaga's backline (whereas he is confined to the touchline when Messi plays). That was far more balanced a team than we've seen most games this season. If Messi was out for an extended period, I'd suspect we'd see more of the same, adjusting to a much more fluid front three than there is when Messi is on the pitch.
Messi is a great player, no doubt, but there is also no doubt the team adjusts to Messi rather than the other way around. It's not about the quality of the rest of the team, which is fine, but the system. You can't play the "Messi Barça" system (as designed by Tito) without Messi; you need a different system, and time to adjust to it.
Even with Messi, I think there are better systems than what was used most games (i.e. putting a CF ahead of Messi, to occupy the centerbacks, as in the Sevilla 2nd half, and the 2nd leg vs Milan). I don't know why that wasn't used more.
boom. +1000
Scoreline is what wins games and thus titles, not performance. I'm not talking about UCL, I'm talking about La Liga. Can you show where Barca wouldn't be able to get the results they need?
0 shots on target until Messi came..but hey we beat Malaga without Messi.
It's probably really nice up there on your high horse, but Malaga were the 6th best team in La Liga. If they can beat them 4-1 what makes you think they can't beat the teams that finished below them? Again, how about you show some substance and put some real thought into what you're posting and list the teams you think Barca would drop points against if they play without Messi.
I
instinct
Guest
Let me see if I got this right- you're saying "any person who doesn't see how I see it isn't worth arguing with." Okay, got it.
But you got it backwards- *with* Messi, Barça is an unbalanced side, designed to put the ball through Messi and account for his lack of movement off the ball. You take Messi out (for injury), and then you see how unbalanced it is. You don't just adjust to a new system overnight (and there wasn't really a new system, just the old system without Messi).
In the game against Malaga (who played well, if likely more open than they would have had there been more at stake), Barça's sans-Messi attack was far different than in previous games. You saw all the forwards overlapping and making runs through the middle, something they are apparently discouraged from doing when Messi is on the pitch. Pedro, in particular, made the kind of great runs that have been his bread and butter, constantly attacking the center of Malaga's backline (whereas he is confined to the touchline when Messi plays). That was far more balanced a team than we've seen most games this season. If Messi was out for an extended period, I'd suspect we'd see more of the same, adjusting to a much more fluid front three than there is when Messi is on the pitch.
Messi is a great player, no doubt, but there is also no doubt the team adjusts to Messi rather than the other way around. It's not about the quality of the rest of the team, which is fine, but the system. You can't play the "Messi Barça" system (as designed by Tito) without Messi; you need a different system, and time to adjust to it.
Even with Messi, I think there are better systems than what was used most games (i.e. putting a CF ahead of Messi, to occupy the centerbacks, as in the Sevilla 2nd half, and the 2nd leg vs Milan). I don't know why that wasn't used more.
+ 1 million
The system we used in the 2nd leg against Milan was great, no doubt and I think that it is Tito's fault that he did not use Villa as a pure striker. He always plays as a LW which is IMO not his preferred position. Now, where Villa (probably) leaves we do not have a real striker in our team. I agree with you that we should use this system more but that would mean that we have to buy a striker. IMO Rooney would be the perfect choice so it would look like:
Rooney
Neymar -------------------- Messi --------------------- Alexis
Neymar -------------------- Messi --------------------- Alexis
Rooney is compared to other strikers very good in passing. In United he prooved it because he played most of the games as CF. So he can easily pass to Neymar or Alexis. The second reason is that he can change the position with Messi. This not only useful because of Rooney's experience on the CF position, it makes us much more unpredictable.
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Maria
New member
If RM beat Barca without their best players what makes you think that they can't beat Osasuna, Espanyol or Sociedad? Oh, yeah..I just remembered that they didn't. To win a league you need someone who can consistently score goals..RM last year had Cristiano, Benzema and Higuain,, while this season we know what happend in the first half when Cristiano&Benzema went missing. For us it was enough Messi(a player that scored in 19 games consecutively), Cesc+Iniesta in the first half of the season and Alexis+Villa+Tello sometimes. Now you could say that those players would have been enough in the games against Sevilla, Betis, Granada, Celta, Athletic, Depotivo or RM(just to name a few), but those that saw those games and had the same sensations of impotence as I did know that this isn't true.
You're not asking substance, you're asking us to guess and use one game as an example to prove a point when La Liga has 38 games. And I would have understood you if we were in 2009, 2010 or 2011, when we had a defense, or Xavi at his best or other 2 players apart from Messi who could score over 20 goals, but for God's sake our 2nd best scorer in La Liga is a midfielder and our 2nd best goalscorer in CL is our LB
. It's just pathetic. And if Neymar doesn't help us next season, it's going to be even worse.Strange how the LW is not his favoured position, however his best performances with Spain and Barca have came from that position. And you're using the game against Milan as an example of why this system would have worked, but I remember quite a few games with Tito or Pep were he was used as a CF but he couldn't beat the CB's not even once. Alexis though(if he would have been a better goalscorer) would have been better for that position IMO.
I don't want Rooney anywhere near our club. The man is not a good professional and if SAF had problems with him, I don't see how Tito could control him. My dream was Cavani, but he is too expensive..Lewandowski would be a good market oportunity(and I'm sure that BVB would rather sell him to us than to Bayern), but I just don't see our club trying to buy him. Which is a shame.
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This statement is false. To win a league you need a team that can consistently score goals. Having a player that consistently scores helps, but for example when Henry/Eto'o/Messi were sharing the goals it was ok. Or look at Bayern, Madzukic top scored with a mediocre 15 goals and they won the title, where last season Gomez top scored with 26 goals and they didn't win.
Judging the impotence of the other forwards when Messi is playing is the wrong judgement. If you want to judge how they'd do without him, you have to judge them when they play without him.
Except I haven't used just one game. Barca played 6 Liga games without Messi and won them all. A 7th game against Depor they were already winning 1-0 when Messi came on. An 8th game away to Atletico they came back to win when Messi got injured. That's a range of teams at the the top, middle and bottom of the table.
The team adjusts, it does what it needs to do to win the game. The likes of Xavi, Busi, Iniesta are among the all time greats. Bring them a Liga team to face and they'll likely get the job done.
If you want a performance based reason for this, here's one for you guys. When Messi doesn't play it may well weaken the attack, but it doesn't really matter that much. This is largely because the defense improves. In those 8 games above, the team conceded 2 goals while Messi was not playing. One of those goals was a consolation goal when they were already 4-0 up against Malaga. Against Vallodolid it was an 87th minute consolation when they were 2-0 up.
That won't happen every time. For example against Betis, they were leading, conceded 2 goals to be down 2-1, but they came out in the second half and were the much better team they equalised just 10 minutes into the half. They looked pretty much certain to go on to win the game, all without Messi, although at that point Messi came on and they won anyway with him in the team. But the point is, they can get the job done.
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