Francesc "Tito" Vilanova

[oz187]

The difference is I'm looking at the performance while you're looking at the goals. That's OK though, just different views I guess.

No, you're looking at part of the performance. You're also ignoring the match situation. I'm looking at the whole two games. Barca were superior when they needed to be superior. They were the superior side in the first leg and they were also the superior side for the last half hour of the second leg.

Not depending on cesc, alexis, villa and pedro to score. Not a chance.

Those players didn't score enought when Messi was playing, however when Messi was absent they stepped up, took responsibility and scored the goals the team needed.

 

[Flavia]

Those players didn't score enought when Messi was playing, however when Messi was absent they stepped up, took responsibility and scored the goals the team needed.

Those games took place after the league was pratically won. Without Messi, from the start, the story would had been different. Alexis had a bad season, apart from the ending. Pedro was bad through out the season. Cesc doesnt work as false 9, and Villa is not the same after his injury. That, along with the worse defense in some years, and no, there's no liga won. A season is much longer than 6 games.

 

[ryuken]

I dont see the need to carry on with this argument any longer.

 

[darthvader7888]

No, Milan away last year: 0-0, not many chances ,we officially complained to Uefa about the San Siro grass, they then took the lead at Camp Nou in the following game but we got two penalties, one of them very soft. Our away games in the cl every year, whether at Arsenal or in Lyon or Stuttgart were always the same. The two Milan games were also identical except this year Milan had a younger more mobile team. We played well in Paris until Messi got hurt. Anyone that says we would have coped with him being subbed off last year is reaching. Not when the every winger cut back every ball to Messi system started last year.

Milan had a better team last year, and we were denied a penalty in each leg. Not to mention we didn't get owned 2-0 in the first leg. We only lost 1 clasico last season (and owned RM 3-1 once), against a MUCH better RM side. This season, we only won 1 clasico, and got owned 3-1 in the last one (again, against a much weaker RM side).

We did rotate, Im not posting the numbers again. We made two signings: Song and Alba, One was definitely great business. He isnt the Sporting Director He asked for a defender I posted that as well. The fact is if they sign Afellay and Pep says he has never watched him but he's 'told hes a good player', and they sell Chygrinsky even though he wanted to keep him, the Barca coach only gets so much of a voice.

His rotation was shit. Which is why we got so many injuries (which is why the "but he had an injured squad!" excuse is BS, the injuries were his fault). Playing Messi against a relegation zone team right after the Bolivia game (and right before a CL match)? Playing him in a pointless game against Atletico right after he came back from injury?
He also overplayed Xavi, Alves, Puyol, etc. And underplayed youngsters like Thiago and especially Montoya.

 

[Cule4life]

I would blame Xavi and Iniesta far more than Messi for our defensive issues. I don't understand how these two always escape criticism.

+1

 

[darthvader7888]

I would blame Tito far more than Messi for our defensive issues.

Fixed.

 

[spark]

His rotation was shit. Which is why we got so many injuries (which is why the "but he had an injured squad!" excuse is BS, the injuries were his fault). Playing Messi against a relegation zone team right after the Bolivia game (and right before a CL match)? Playing him in a pointless game against Atletico right after he came back from injury?
He also overplayed Xavi, Alves, Puyol, etc. And underplayed youngsters like Thiago and especially Montoya.

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthrea...uot-Vilanova?p=1025502&viewfull=1#post1025502

You can keep repeating it and laughing all you want but it doesnt make it any less fatuous. The rotation was the same as any other year and every other big European club except Bayern. Those are the facts. Whether you can bring yourself to accept it is another thing all together.

 

[darthvader7888]

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthrea...uot-Vilanova?p=1025502&viewfull=1#post1025502

You can keep repeating it and laughing all you want but it doesnt make it any less fatuous. The rotation was the same as any other year and every other big European club except Bayern. Those are the facts. Whether you can bring yourself to accept it is another thing all together.

Please don't tell me that you seriously think that Alves, Messi and Xavi weren't overplayed, or that Montoya and Thiago weren't underplayed. Thiago played like 1000 minutes less than last season ffs. And Xavi barely played less . And playing Messi for all 90 minutes against a fucking relegation zone team right after that game in Bolivia and right before a CL match... . That's most likely the reason he got injured. And all this was with the league won by fucking December.

And let's not forget about the lineups in the last 4 pointless games (Xavi starting most of them, Messi starting right after he came back from an injury, Thiago only starting one of those games, etc, etc ,etc)...

Face it, Tito's rotation was shit.

 

[Stric]

Even if the rotation was the same as last year, which it wasn't, it still wouldn't make it any less bad. Fact is, all of our players are one year older than last season. That includes the likes of Xavi and Puyol, but also Montoya and Tello and Thiago etc. Logic demands rotation be appropriate to these changes.

 

[barcanuck]

Biggest differences between Pep and Tito (long winded)

Pep is an innovator/risk taker.
Tito is more conservative.

There is more to it than that however...

Pep Era:

Pep inherited a team which had pretty much everything he needed including strengh, size and skill.

Some of his innovations and risk taking:

- Messi as False 9 turned him into to the best player of all time
- 3-4-3 was brought back and scored over 190 goals in a season.

These are just two key examples of his work. Biggest difference in teams however is that Pep had size and muscle on his team first year and then got Ibra next year. Tito inherited a team with barely and size and muscle.
- Yaya, Keita, Abidal, Marquez, Pique, Puyol, Eto'o, Henry, Busquets, Ibra, Caceres, Gabi Milito, Chygrynskiy. All have size, skill and offered different styles all over the pitch. In Pep's first year you would always see height muscle at all parts of the field. Yaya started most games, but also played along side Keita at times of need and Busquets. Henry and Eto up front was a staple along side Messi made the most prolific trident scoring 100 goals. On defense you would never see Adriano Alves Alba Mascherano type height. It would be just Dani Alves with Pique, Puyol, Abidal, Milito, Marquez, Caceres, Chygrynskiy were all centre backs, only make shift centre back was Yaya Toure and he's huge. We never settled for a short cake in the middle of the defense that's for sure. Alot of the players didn't have the best time in Barca like Milito, Caceres, Chiggy but they were options for Pep if needed.

Little by little the muscle started dissapearing off the team and being replaced with shorter alternatives like Adriano, Mascherano, Alba, Cesc, Villa, Sanchez. With Henry, Eto'o and Ibra all gone Pep had only muscle in mid and defense left. Pep being the innovator though he could solve those problems via 3-4-3 and we scored record amount of goals but it didn't achieve the CL or La Liga. Not sure if Pep's wishes for transfers were being ignored or the board told Pep they can only sign Sanchez and Cesc for example and no room for any other purchases but obviously Pep doesn't get along with this board like he did with Laporta. Pep was on a sabbatical and made our players cry when he left.

Tito Era:

Tito inherited a team which only Pique, Puyol, Busquets, Abidal can win an ariel duel or offer some strength and height but they are all defensive players, no offensive muscle options existed. Song and Bartra were brought in and given some muscle but were not given the time in Tito's lineups in big games constantly. Tito doesn't have the options Pep does but still made crucial mistakes not even trying Song with Busquets against any of the big teams like Bayern, Real (6 games!), PSG, Milan. He did throw Song in late in a couple of these games but it was no use. We conceded the most goals in the Tito/Pep era. We have CB's that are 5'8 while high school teams have taller CBs. We converted an offensive winger to CB. We tried Song as CB. We threw in Bartra at CB. We got away with it alot but never against the big teams in CL or Real. We can ice a 5 foot 8 average back line with Alba - Mascherano - Adriano - Alves.

This off season is the key one for Tito, if he doesn't bulk up these issues or try the double pivot or even buy a taller forward. We cannot have too much of the same thing, we need to bulk up to keep up as all teams in the CL have 2 strong CBs and 2 strong mids at least.

I'm not going to criticize Tito overly much but he did have some flaws. His flaws were exposed but he needs to whip this board into shape to actually enforce the flaws which is height and muscle, up and down the lineup. 2 more defenders and one striker good in the air is what's needed. I think alot of the blame should go to Rossell and this board for being focusd on signing only offensive stars and blowing the whole budget on that. Laporta was a much better president bulking up the squad up and down. Rossell is more proud of his shirt sales Cesc, Neymar and Sanchez can make for him. He is the biggest problem in my opinion and should take more heat than Tito for only signing Song in the offseason when it was clear Abidal and Puyol aren't the same.

Hope some of you guys agree and see where I'm coming from here.

 

[oz187]

When Laporta was president, the squad was designed by Begiristain. His job has been taken over by Zubi, if the squad has fallen short it is primarily the fault of Zubi.

 

[JamDav1982]

When Laporta was president, the squad was designed by Begiristain. His job has been taken over by Zubi, if the squad has fallen short it is primarily the fault of Zubi.

That previous squad had a peak Puyol, Iniesta, Xavi that is one of the biggest differences.

 

[big_man]

Biggest differences between Pep and Tito (long winded)

Pep is an innovator/risk taker.
Tito is more conservative.

There is more to it than that however...

Pep Era:

Pep inherited a team which had pretty much everything he needed including strengh, size and skill.

Some of his innovations and risk taking:

- Messi as False 9 turned him into to the best player of all time
- 3-4-3 was brought back and scored over 190 goals in a season.

These are just two key examples of his work. Biggest difference in teams however is that Pep had size and muscle on his team first year and then got Ibra next year. Tito inherited a team with barely and size and muscle.
- Yaya, Keita, Abidal, Marquez, Pique, Puyol, Eto'o, Henry, Busquets, Ibra, Caceres, Gabi Milito, Chygrynskiy. All have size, skill and offered different styles all over the pitch. In Pep's first year you would always see height muscle at all parts of the field. Yaya started most games, but also played along side Keita at times of need and Busquets. Henry and Eto up front was a staple along side Messi made the most prolific trident scoring 100 goals. On defense you would never see Adriano Alves Alba Mascherano type height. It would be just Dani Alves with Pique, Puyol, Abidal, Milito, Marquez, Caceres, Chygrynskiy were all centre backs, only make shift centre back was Yaya Toure and he's huge. We never settled for a short cake in the middle of the defense that's for sure. Alot of the players didn't have the best time in Barca like Milito, Caceres, Chiggy but they were options for Pep if needed.

Little by little the muscle started dissapearing off the team and being replaced with shorter alternatives like Adriano, Mascherano, Alba, Cesc, Villa, Sanchez. With Henry, Eto'o and Ibra all gone Pep had only muscle in mid and defense left. Pep being the innovator though he could solve those problems via 3-4-3 and we scored record amount of goals but it didn't achieve the CL or La Liga. Not sure if Pep's wishes for transfers were being ignored or the board told Pep they can only sign Sanchez and Cesc for example and no room for any other purchases but obviously Pep doesn't get along with this board like he did with Laporta. Pep was on a sabbatical and made our players cry when he left.

Tito Era:

Tito inherited a team which only Pique, Puyol, Busquets, Abidal can win an ariel duel or offer some strength and height but they are all defensive players, no offensive muscle options existed. Song and Bartra were brought in and given some muscle but were not given the time in Tito's lineups in big games constantly. Tito doesn't have the options Pep does but still made crucial mistakes not even trying Song with Busquets against any of the big teams like Bayern, Real (6 games!), PSG, Milan. He did throw Song in late in a couple of these games but it was no use. We conceded the most goals in the Tito/Pep era. We have CB's that are 5'8 while high school teams have taller CBs. We converted an offensive winger to CB. We tried Song as CB. We threw in Bartra at CB. We got away with it alot but never against the big teams in CL or Real. We can ice a 5 foot 8 average back line with Alba - Mascherano - Adriano - Alves.

This off season is the key one for Tito, if he doesn't bulk up these issues or try the double pivot or even buy a taller forward. We cannot have too much of the same thing, we need to bulk up to keep up as all teams in the CL have 2 strong CBs and 2 strong mids at least.

I'm not going to criticize Tito overly much but he did have some flaws. His flaws were exposed but he needs to whip this board into shape to actually enforce the flaws which is height and muscle, up and down the lineup. 2 more defenders and one striker good in the air is what's needed. I think alot of the blame should go to Rossell and this board for being focusd on signing only offensive stars and blowing the whole budget on that. Laporta was a much better president bulking up the squad up and down. Rossell is more proud of his shirt sales Cesc, Neymar and Sanchez can make for him. He is the biggest problem in my opinion and should take more heat than Tito for only signing Song in the offseason when it was clear Abidal and Puyol aren't the same.

Hope some of you guys agree and see where I'm coming from here.

Yup, can't argue with any of that really. People keep going on about counters but an even bigger issue is the LACK OF HEIGHT AND PHYSICAL PRESENCE. Over half of Bayern and Madrid's goals this season came from set pieces/long balls over the top.

In the first leg of the Bayern encounter the first 2 goals that changed the whole complexion of the tie came from that, likewise the goals conceded against Madrid in the 2 legged Copa semi finals.

It is a glaring issue that has somehow been hilariously ignored, the team got its height and physical presence stripped away gradually until there was virtually none left, and 90% of this actually happened during the pep era.

Now the team (staff and players alike) is full of pansies that have become fanatics of "tiki taka", almost to jehovah witness' levels, so much so that they are completely oblivious to the benefits of having another dimension to the team.

Call it delusion, arrogance, ignorance, whatever, it is a HUGE problem in the CL that needs to be rectified, it isn't so obvious in a league that is completely devoid of teams that play the physical and aerial game, which is why the team was able to coast to a 100 point victory.

If that doesn't get fixed, Messi or no Messi, the team is doomed for failure again in the champions league next season.

 

[footyfan]

They were the superior side in the first leg

LOL

In the exact same fashion, I can say Chelsea were superior to Barca when they needed to be. What a ridiculous statement. Now you're just over-reaching to continue the discussion further

 

[darthvader7888]

LOL

In the exact same fashion, I can say Chelsea were superior to Barca when they needed to be. What a ridiculous statement. Now you're just over-reaching to continue the discussion further

Barca were superior to Chelsea throughout the entire tie. We didn't play that well against PSG, but they were only really superior in the first hour of the second leg.