Frenkie de Jong
- Thread starter DonAK
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DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
I'm not expecting a La Liga trophy. I'm expecting a proper style of play. A team that looks like they're playing in a functional system with a proper plan set in place where you can easily see they're executing stuff they're training in training sessions every day.
I don't care if we win a trophy this season. I just want to finish top four and us to look like anything resembling a TEAM.
I just want us to take a step in the right direction.
FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
Exactly. Xavi won't make us win LaLiga, BUT I think with him we could see improvement of team play year after year. Koeman hasn't shown any progress. You could even argue he has gone downhill. Arguably we played our best football last season when most of the amigos were injured. (He did well for a while with young players)
JamDav1982
Senior Member
The system was fine today for most part. It has been far worse in the past this season.
Need to settle down into a team and when Pedri, Dembele back and Fati up to speed should look better.
Dont think it is even a great time for Xavi when will get one crack at it most likely. For his sake better waiting to see where club is in the summer.
Best have played under Koeman was 343 when Pique was injured... Pique came back fit Koeman forced him in side and turned to shit again.
Need to settle down into a team and when Pedri, Dembele back and Fati up to speed should look better.
Dont think it is even a great time for Xavi when will get one crack at it most likely. For his sake better waiting to see where club is in the summer.
Best have played under Koeman was 343 when Pique was injured... Pique came back fit Koeman forced him in side and turned to shit again.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
I really wonder what type of elite team atm that has that gala XI with no weakness and all star level of players in every position?
Liverpool? Nope, they have mediocre midfield, Mane, Firmino, VVD are not having the best season of their lives so far too.
RM? Is Vasquez and Mendy that far from a Barca FB? is their CB situation elite? what about their RW? Casamero form? Kroos and Modric age?
City? fullbacks (especially LB) leaves a lot to be desired, CDM Rodri is only starting to look decent this year but it is small sample size, they have many good wings but very wasteful at same time. CB pair looks great on paper but at times very easy to disrupt.
PSG? Outside of Verratti their midfield is questionable, defense is also a suspect
Bayern? They have grandpa Lewa carrying them, with no one in the horizon to replace his input. Their defense needs work, as Mpabbe proved last season.
You later mentions Juve, but they are still starting CB pair that is older than Budquets, GK is liability and midfield might be worse than us, with no elite attacker and generally old squad. Their young and upcoming start (Chiesa) is 24 years old winger who is starting their big games from the bench
Seriously, look at forum of every club you mention, and look how frustrated their about their squad players.
Those imaginary world class teams that non of our players would ever play there is only the historical treble winner type. A 2015 Barca type of team,
What we have atm is a team team that lacks world class input, we have many players that can start in a league winning team, maybe in a CL contender/winner. we just have no one at all that will be one of the star players.
World class players raise the level of the whole team, cover the weakness of their teammates and step up when needed, they can be affected by coaching but their class will be always apparent regardless of the coaching. Messi was class under every coach, Salah was class under Spalletti, De Bruyne was class under Pellegrini.
Who is at Barca that play like he is top 3-5 in his position? non.
Do you think if this team had Salah, KDB, Marquinhos we won't look like league favourites and CL contender? Or a Benzema/Oblak/Verratti?
Frenkie ain't world class, but he can be a part of world class team. Problem is this wasn't what he was hyped for nor what we paid for him.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Khaled, when I said that Bayern, Juve, Real are better organized than us, I meant: historically in terms of spending, wages, expenditures.
Barca and Real are the biggest spenders in the last 25 years.
Barca has the highest wages ever in a history of football.
Barca has the highest amount of expensive flops like Dembele, Cou, Griezmann, Frenkie.
Also, can you imagine Bayern buying 120m Griezmann even though they don't need him?
And even though he has no clear position in a team?
Bayern is buying players whom they need.
While Barca was always, except in Pep's years (mostly) a chaotic, emotional, impulsive drunk millionaire.
About the part where you mention how we don't need 11 superstars to win league titles, true.
But those teams have 3-4-5 world class players and the rest are "fillers".
Salah is among top3 on his position.
Becker also. Van Dijk also.
Real has Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Casemiro.
Who do we have?
Who is a Barca's player closest to top5-10 in his position?
Probably Frenkie or Pedri.
Yet, Frenkie has no clear position/role in our formation.
And imo, the same will be apparent for Pedri in the future.
Even Gaspart's team had Rivaldo, who was Ballon D Or.
Or Kluivert, who was among top CFs.
Or even young Puyol.
Our fans will now reply: but we have Frenkie, Pedri and Fati.
Frenkie, who doesn't fit on any position.
Pedri, imo, a hide and seek master for whom I don't know on which position should he play.
And slowish, severly injured with meh overal abilities, Fati.
Look how our quality has fallen even compared to Gaspart's era.
On top of that, Gaspart had money.
Right now we have a worse team, no superstars, no leaders, we are broke and we are torn between Pep's football and moving away from it.
Also, the European opponents are better than 20 years ago due to oil money at Psg, City and Newcastle and rich sponsor-deals EPL teams.
Things really aren't looking promising for us.
And especially: we will lose years going in circles whether we should copy Pep's team from 2008-2011 or try something new, due to a burden of too much success in a history and where the club, the board, fans, media and players bought the narrative that we are different, more than a club and how we should be sticking to our roots and principles.
Even that problem alone will cause us a decade of being totally lost and clueless, unless if we'll magically start to win with our style/in our way, which is imo impossible with the current quality of players, no money and a direction of European football towards more physique, running and directness.
Barca and Real are the biggest spenders in the last 25 years.
Barca has the highest wages ever in a history of football.
Barca has the highest amount of expensive flops like Dembele, Cou, Griezmann, Frenkie.
Also, can you imagine Bayern buying 120m Griezmann even though they don't need him?
And even though he has no clear position in a team?
Bayern is buying players whom they need.
While Barca was always, except in Pep's years (mostly) a chaotic, emotional, impulsive drunk millionaire.
About the part where you mention how we don't need 11 superstars to win league titles, true.
But those teams have 3-4-5 world class players and the rest are "fillers".
Salah is among top3 on his position.
Becker also. Van Dijk also.
Real has Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Casemiro.
Who do we have?
Who is a Barca's player closest to top5-10 in his position?
Probably Frenkie or Pedri.
Yet, Frenkie has no clear position/role in our formation.
And imo, the same will be apparent for Pedri in the future.
Even Gaspart's team had Rivaldo, who was Ballon D Or.
Or Kluivert, who was among top CFs.
Or even young Puyol.
Our fans will now reply: but we have Frenkie, Pedri and Fati.
Frenkie, who doesn't fit on any position.
Pedri, imo, a hide and seek master for whom I don't know on which position should he play.
And slowish, severly injured with meh overal abilities, Fati.
Look how our quality has fallen even compared to Gaspart's era.
On top of that, Gaspart had money.
Right now we have a worse team, no superstars, no leaders, we are broke and we are torn between Pep's football and moving away from it.
Also, the European opponents are better than 20 years ago due to oil money at Psg, City and Newcastle and rich sponsor-deals EPL teams.
Things really aren't looking promising for us.
And especially: we will lose years going in circles whether we should copy Pep's team from 2008-2011 or try something new, due to a burden of too much success in a history and where the club, the board, fans, media and players bought the narrative that we are different, more than a club and how we should be sticking to our roots and principles.
Even that problem alone will cause us a decade of being totally lost and clueless, unless if we'll magically start to win with our style/in our way, which is imo impossible with the current quality of players, no money and a direction of European football towards more physique, running and directness.
serghei
Senior Member
What he wants is to moan.
He's basically Bill Paxton's character in the first half of Aliens.
Isn't it obvious? Frenkie was brought in to replace Rakitic who bbz adores (fair enough as a croatian) and now that the entire team is shitter from top to bottom he's having a dig at Frenkie the same way people had a dig at Rakitic despite Rakitic playing like crap in an astronomically better team.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Or, Frenkie is really meh and one of the most overrated players recently.
Raki vs Frenkie:
1. creativity in the attacking third = Raki wins
2. shooting, scoring, attacking instincts = Rakitic, a former no10 and a Cf in early 20s, wins
3. defending as a pivot = Rakitic wins due to leaving less giant holes behind his back and not leaving his position as often as Frenkie
4. possession/TikiTaka football = both are meh and not for Pep's standards
5. running = Frenkie probably runs more, that is his best world class skill, even thougn Rakitic was always among the top3-5 players with covered distance both for Barca and Croatia
Frenkie wins only on the eye test because he has some flair while running with the ball and avoiding players in his half (press resistance).
When you are watching him, he looks world class. But when you follow him longer and analyze deeper, he is way more average than on the first (eye test) impression.
A lot of running, a lot of "buzzing", but nothing happens with him in a team, both on the attacking or defensive end of a pitch.
That is more or less it from his abilities.
Remove Frenkie from a lineup:
1. will our defense suffer? No
2. will our possession suffer? No way
3. will our creativity in the attacking third suffer? No
Will we lose flair on the eye test? Yes
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ajnotkeith
Senior Member
Well let's take MU who are really struggling right now their bench would walk into our starting 11 right now - here's their bench against Liverpool :
Pogba - no brainer
Lingard - Plays both LW and RW and would walk into the team right now. We are actually interested in him for when his contract expires.
Dalot - RB, hasn't played much, I'd take him over Mingueza tho
Cavani - Easily walks into our 11 and way better than Depay up front, not even close
DVB - Better than 17 year old Gavi? Sure
Sancho - Plays RW and LW, even if he is overhyped, still plays a big role for us
And then our bench : Riqui, Balde, Nico, Demir, Umtiti, Lenglet... whilst Man U who aren't even a top side have a bench full of players that would walk straight into our 11 (see the issue?) We have a bench full of players who many of them are Segunda level.
Gaudi
Senior Member
BBZ is pessimistic but he is right in many aspects, but I think our number one concern and downfall is stupid idea that we can't shake off: our so called DNA and style.
Literary no big (not even top, just big) team plays like us: slow, static yet trying to walk the ball in to the net. This is my biggest problem with our line of mediocre coaches (not just Ronald). This is actually very visible today with Depay. Is he top clas - no, but he is basically copying Messi after Messi - you need to be idiot to play the same after Messi's gone. That is why he hogs the ball, looses it a lot, tries dribbles surrounded with 4 players and so on.
Also, I never seen a modern team with no penetration without the ball, no movement, only ball to the feet and then you either try crazy dribbling or pass it back.
In defence we neither create 2 blocks neither high press, something in between which leads to huge holes everywhere and many 1 vs 1.
Only if that was fixed I would be able to watch players individually. Now, we do have problems...for example if we line up FDJ, Pedri and Gavi - they are almost 3 identical players, we need different skills.
But no team except PSG in attack has all superstars, and even them, I'm willing to bet, will gete destroyed by good, organized team.
L'pool had destroyed us with Wilijandum, Milner and Handesron - how would they look here, with our style?
How would Haaland look? Big tree surrounded with 4 players? Or quick Mbappe with no space?
Literary no big (not even top, just big) team plays like us: slow, static yet trying to walk the ball in to the net. This is my biggest problem with our line of mediocre coaches (not just Ronald). This is actually very visible today with Depay. Is he top clas - no, but he is basically copying Messi after Messi - you need to be idiot to play the same after Messi's gone. That is why he hogs the ball, looses it a lot, tries dribbles surrounded with 4 players and so on.
Also, I never seen a modern team with no penetration without the ball, no movement, only ball to the feet and then you either try crazy dribbling or pass it back.
In defence we neither create 2 blocks neither high press, something in between which leads to huge holes everywhere and many 1 vs 1.
Only if that was fixed I would be able to watch players individually. Now, we do have problems...for example if we line up FDJ, Pedri and Gavi - they are almost 3 identical players, we need different skills.
But no team except PSG in attack has all superstars, and even them, I'm willing to bet, will gete destroyed by good, organized team.
L'pool had destroyed us with Wilijandum, Milner and Handesron - how would they look here, with our style?
How would Haaland look? Big tree surrounded with 4 players? Or quick Mbappe with no space?
Raketa10
Senior Member
I agree that FDJ is performing way below the required level but he is NOT a CM player. Try to compare position he is playing for Barca with the position he played for Ajax. He was NEVER strong in the final third and his main strength was transition from his to the opponents half. He should not be compared with Rakitic but rather with Busquets. However, Busquets is the holly cow of this club and can't be benched and FDJ stagnation is the result of that. I would very much like to see him play as a DM for 10 games in a row. Maybe than we could judge him fairly.
This club is run by idiots for some time now. We are bringing a DM to play as a CM/AM, we brought wingers to play as a No.9 and second striker and AM to play as our wingers. Than all of a sudden we are wondering why the hell are they playing like crap?! This is the easiest way to ruin a player. Just force him to play out of his position. He will be unhappy and perform miserably and than fans and idiots on internet will shit on him 24/7. A magnificent recipe to ruin someones career. Just look at the examples of Coutinho and Griezmann. Unfortunately majority of fans will easily conclude that they forgot how to play the game of football which is laughable.
During the recent years we utilized DM as a CB, DM as a CM, CM as a RB, RW as a LW, AM as a LW, second striker as a CF or a winger and now even Depay is playing all over the field together with Fati. To be fair I don't even know who is winger and who is currently our no.9 out of those two. When we sum that up no wonder some players under-performed heavily during their time here.
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Frenkie is overrated by few people nowadays. He gets plenty of criticism from people, me included. If you're still arguing against people who called him the best midfielder in the world then that argument isn't happening. He's playing in a completely dysfunctional team. The same team that you yourself have decided is not good enough. Let's go through the players you have said aren't good enough:
Mats, Dest, Garcia, Pique, Alba, Busquets, Fati and so on. That's most of the starting xi. Ironically the one player you recently said you rated is Mingueza who was torn apart yesterday and made to look amateur.
Removing Frenkie from the lineup would do little I agree on that. Tactics and players chosen around him are not there to get the best out of him. Same issue united have with Pogba.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Our team is filled with average players, but Frenkie is one of them.
You could have read a lot of commentators like Gullit, other Dutch coaches and lately even Spanish media saying how he isn't lifting our team.
We have that excuse for years on our forum how if a team is bad, a single player can't do too much.
But then, you had Ronaldinho who played in as equally as shitty team as this Barca in 2003/04 and singlehandadly lift us from 10th position to a 2nd place.
Or what Messi had been doing for a decade.
Or what Rivaldo has been doing in Gaspart's era.
Ok, he doesn't need to have Baloon D Or performances, but he isn't doing anything.
When times are bad:
1. some players won't do anything to lift the team
2. while other can help. They won't be able to do wonders, but they will lift the team to some extent.
Frenkie is doing absolutely nothing to lifting our team.
I would dare to say that he is one of the reason why we declined.
Here is a comment of Sport, he got 4/10:
"Bar?a needs a version of De Jong that does not arrive. And not only in football, the Dutchman should be one of the leaders of this team, but he is not. Rather than rebelling in difficult situations, he seems more and more like a contextual gamer. He shines only when the team gives him a favorable scenario for his game. He ended up being replaced by Sergi Roberto."
2 years ago, people talked about Frenkie:
-- the future best midfielder in the world
-- but also: our future leader and a captain
People shit all the time on Dembele, Cou and Griezz for their 135, 165 and 120m transfers.
Is Frenkie's 85m transfer MUCH better than those transfers?
The only difference is that he is younger than Cou and Griezz, so we will recoup some money on him.
Other than that, when you remove fans' bias towards Barca DNA, young players and hope, his stint at Barca is hardly better than anything what Griezmann has done in his time here.
Frenkie offered more than Cou and Dembele, if that is any consolation.
But that's it.
Probably the 4th most expensive flop in our history.
Can anyone name 2-3 big matches in 2 and a half years where he played well and lifted the team by himself?
I am not actually comparing Frenkie to Rivaldo, but those excuses are lame: a single player can't do anything.
Yes, he can.
A lot of posts here too often sound as if our poor players need prime Pep/Klopp and a perfectly balanced squad with 15 good players in order to shine.
And I don't agree with that.
Anyway, year is 2001, last round of La Liga, Barca is 5th on the table, Valencia is 4th and Barca needs a win to qualify for Champions league.
To add more context, Valencia was a CL finalist in 2000 and 2001, so let's say: a level of a current Psg, Bayern or Liverpool.
And sometimes a single man, his skills and courage can make a difference even against a better and more balanced team.
The winning goal is scored in the 90th minute.
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