Frenkie de Jong

[khaled_a_d]

Khaled, when I said that Bayern, Juve, Real are better organized than us, I meant: historically in terms of spending, wages, expenditures.
Barca and Real are the biggest spenders in the last 25 years.
Barca has the highest wages ever in a history of football.
Barca has the highest amount of expensive flops like Dembele, Cou, Griezmann, Frenkie.

Clubs consists of people who changes, they aren't doing well because of the logo.
Barca were well run under Nunez, one of the best run organization under Laporta, and one of the worst run under Gaspart and Bartou. We all know that, no need for wall of text for it.


Laporta is currently the president, and he has recruited the CEO of a company that has revenue that is probably bigger than the entire 32 clubs playing in CL, recruited a ruthless experienced executive in Alemany who has massive experience in Spain and was wanted by Perez before.
My main concern is Planas, the guy is experienced and connected but he is small club guy which can be an issue.

About the part where you mention how we don't need 11 superstars to win league titles, true.
But those teams have 3-4-5 world class players and the rest are "fillers".
Salah is among top3 on his position.
Becker also. Van Dijk also.
Real has Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Casemiro.

Who do we have?
Who is a Barca's player closest to top5-10 in his position?

Probably Frenkie or Pedri.

That is my whole point, we don't have a single one.
Fati and Pedri has the potential to be ones, Araujo too. Dest has a "long shot" and it is partially due to lack of quality in this position in football.

And no, Frenkie isn't, Pedri currently isn't. They are closer to top 15-20 range, which is fine for a starter in midfield, but needs world class players.

Barca atm has 3 main squad issues:
A-No world class players
B-Non balanced squad, players don't cover for each other weaknesses at all, age distribution is bad, few multi dimensional players albeit many versatile ones.
C-We have 3 starting positions of clear weaknesses, CB, DM & RW.

You add that to having a coach who isn't top 20 in Europe, and it is a struggle.
But non of those issues aren't fixable at all, and many clubs in worse positions fixed them.
Odds are actually in our favour, the question is just in how many years?

On top of that, Gaspart had money.

Right now we have a worse team, no superstars, no leaders, we are broke and we are torn between Pep's football and moving away from it.
Also, the European opponents are better than 20 years ago due to oil money at Psg, City and Newcastle and rich sponsor-deals EPL teams.

Gaspart had money, but didn't leave his successor much of it and yet he build a CL winner team in his 3rd year.
We have higher revenue than before, most of overpaid earner are of the books by end of next season.
Next year we will most likely have enough money to add few players, although a lot hangs on Griezmann and trincao options getting exercised.

And especially: we will lose years going in circles whether we should copy Pep's team from 2008-2011 or try something new, due to a burden of too much success in a history and where the club, the board, fans, media and players bought the narrative that we are different, more than a club and how we should be sticking to our roots and principles.

Let's forget a little about the fans fantasies here, and talk about current decision makers:
Alemany: not a Crujifista, not by a mile.
Planas: Not a Crujifista either.
Jordi Cruyff: Well, it is clear he likes his dad ideas, but there is also a chance he understands his dad work better, as EV said problem in Barca is fans more loyal to Crujif way than Crujif himself.


Laporta: Sure, in public he is the biggest Crujif supporter, like ever.
But here is what we also know:
Laporta wanted Mourinho over Pep in 2008, but choose the later due to Txiki and Crujif opinion. Laporta always had the tendency to take his trusties opinion in football matter.
Laporta came in, wanted one of Flick or Nagelsmann, Bayen and NT fucked him over.
Laporta list of candidates according to the media have :

-Martinez
-Pirlo
-Diego Martinez (not many reports tbf)
-Gallardo
-Ten Haag
-Xavi

-1st 4 have nothing to do with Pep.
-Ten Haag sounds a lot like Pepista, a Ducth Ajax coach who was at Bayern during Pep tenure, right?
But watching current Ajax team they are built more like a Klopp team. Their midfield is the worst line by far but their defense and attack are brilliant and knows how to move and pass to support their average midfield.

The only one who was linked to our coaching job who is really a Crujifista is Xavi, and that is because of his legacy here. And even then it is reported that Laporta isn't his biggest fan.
Xavi will be always a popular choice because we know we can get him, well get support of players and fans and bring stability. In case no valid candidates is available I think that is only when Laporta will have to swallow his pride and hire him. But not because of him being Barca DNA

Lastly, which player Laporta wants most atm? Halaand
Is he really any close to Barca DNA? I doubt it.

I just think the whole Barca DNA is a marketing strategy the club ha successfully created, don't expect the club to execute it but don't expect them to stop talking about it

 

[Rory]

bbz I'm not sure why you've written all of that. I think most people are aware of Frenkie's limitations. It's been said for years he's either average or slightly above average unless in the right system where he is world class. A poorly chosen transfer target when considering we had no intention of hiring a manager known for a style that would suit him.

 

[JamDav1982]

Buying FDJ and thinking he is the type of player to get best out of in midfield with likes of Busquets is ridiculous.

They are opposite type to get best out of one another.

FDJ is class and would still have top teams clamouring for him. Yesterday he was shite in 2nd half and now appears was injured but he has not been nearly as bad as likes of BBZ makes out.

BBZ usual... make up shit about Barca trying to replicate Pep for years with the style as claims it is out dated.. then compare FDJ to likes of Xavi and how should play.

FDJ was one of Barcas best players last season and levels above shite like Mingueza that fits the BBZ criteria.

 

[Raketa10]

Our team is filled with average players, but Frenkie is one of them.

You could have read a lot of commentators like Gullit, other Dutch coaches and lately even Spanish media saying how he isn't lifting our team.
We have that excuse for years on our forum how if a team is bad, a single player can't do too much.

But then, you had Ronaldinho who played in as equally as shitty team as this Barca in 2003/04 and singlehandadly lift us from 10th position to a 2nd place.
Or what Messi had been doing for a decade.
Or what Rivaldo has been doing in Gaspart's era.

Ok, he doesn't need to have Baloon D Or performances, but he isn't doing anything.
When times are bad:
1. some players won't do anything to lift the team
2. while other can help. They won't be able to do wonders, but they will lift the team to some extent.
Frenkie is doing absolutely nothing to lifting our team.
I would dare to say that he is one of the reason why we declined.

Here is a comment of Sport, he got 4/10:
"Bar?a needs a version of De Jong that does not arrive. And not only in football, the Dutchman should be one of the leaders of this team, but he is not. Rather than rebelling in difficult situations, he seems more and more like a contextual gamer. He shines only when the team gives him a favorable scenario for his game. He ended up being replaced by Sergi Roberto."

2 years ago, people talked about Frenkie:
-- the future best midfielder in the world
-- but also: our future leader and a captain

People shit all the time on Dembele, Cou and Griezz for their 135, 165 and 120m transfers.
Is Frenkie's 85m transfer MUCH better than those transfers?

The only difference is that he is younger than Cou and Griezz, so we will recoup some money on him.
Other than that, when you remove fans' bias towards Barca DNA, young players and hope, his stint at Barca is hardly better than anything what Griezmann has done in his time here.
Frenkie offered more than Cou and Dembele, if that is any consolation.
But that's it.

Probably the 4th most expensive flop in our history.

Can anyone name 2-3 big matches in 2 and a half years where he played well and lifted the team by himself?

I am not actually comparing Frenkie to Rivaldo, but those excuses are lame: a single player can't do anything.
Yes, he can.
A lot of posts here too often sound as if our poor players need prime Pep/Klopp and a perfectly balanced squad with 15 good players in order to shine.
And I don't agree with that.

Anyway, year is 2001, last round of La Liga, Barca is 5th on the table, Valencia is 4th and Barca needs a win to qualify for Champions league.
To add more context, Valencia was a CL finalist in 2000 and 2001, so let's say: a level of a current Psg, Bayern or Liverpool.
And sometimes a single man, his skills and courage can make a difference even against a better and more balanced team.
The winning goal is scored in the 90th minute.

Do you honestly expect from a DM player to carry the team alone? Has anyone ever done that? I can remember few CM players who did that but I honestly can't remember any DM player on that level. Yes there were few who were important but they for sure didn't single-handedly carry their teams. All the players you mentioned were either wingers or AM players. One of those 3 players is in top 10 players of all time and is probably the most skillful player of all time. The other one is the GOAT and the third one is Rivaldo who was a fabulous player. He was a world cup winner with Brazil and a world class attacker. Players like that are rare and hard to find. Frenki is not on that level and will never be but that doesn't mean he is a flop. Regarding his price tag, I agree it was overblown but so were many others in that time. My point is that he is easily good enough to be our starting DM but he can't play there because of Busquets. As a result he is playing out of his position all of the time.

 

[mc_lovin]

I feel people still don't grasp our situation in the last few years and especially this one. We literally spend no money to reinforce some very obvious weaknesses or blew it on Coutinho, Griezmann and Dembele. You don't compete like that.

In no way was I happy with Frenkie's performance yesterday, probably his worst in a Barca jersey, but generally he has been rock solid to great for us. The story of our season so far has been scrambling together a forward line ffs*. That's no way to rate any of our players. BBZ is stuck in the past, in modern football a handful players in a dysfunctional team don't make the difference.


*same as last season thinking about it.

 

[vegitot]

Why there is a Rivaldo - De Jong comparision???

Btw, Ronaldinho during 2003/04 still had Xavi, Puyol and of course David who started Barca's success later.

None of Barca's current midfielders can compete with this guy

https://youtu.be/eDF7f1eQ-_U

 

[JamDav1982]

It is just the usual BBZ changing the goal posts.

Used to do it with Neymar constantly... Neymar would score 40 odd and he would say doesnt assist enough.. he would then create more chances than anyone else and he would say doesnt score enouugh.

For Pedri a year ago it was all about another choir boy that would flop... he does well and criteria changed to he wont be Xavi/Iniesta. Repeat same idea for Fati.

BBZ still thinks Coutinho is top, Mingueza is one of his favs etc.... yet writes essays on FDJ who has been one of Barcas better players in last year even if not as good as could be.

 

[vegitot]

Isn't it obvious? Frenkie was brought in to replace Rakitic who bbz adores (fair enough as a croatian) and now that the entire team is shitter from top to bottom he's having a dig at Frenkie the same way people had a dig at Rakitic despite Rakitic playing like crap in an astronomically better team.

Lol, De Jong was expected to be a new Busquest, not Rakitic.

 

[Behrox]

I'm not expecting a La Liga trophy. I'm expecting a proper style of play. A team that looks like they're playing in a functional system with a proper plan set in place where you can easily see they're executing stuff they're training in training sessions every day.

I don't care if we win a trophy this season. I just want to finish top four and us to look like anything resembling a TEAM.

I just want us to take a step in the right direction.

Agreed. It pisses me off that everytime one of our players gets the ball, they have to pause and look around cluelessly for the next option which is mostly pass it back to the CBs or give it to the fullbacks.

Abysmal

 

[Raketa10]

I'm not expecting a La Liga trophy. I'm expecting a proper style of play. A team that looks like they're playing in a functional system with a proper plan set in place where you can easily see they're executing stuff they're training in training sessions every day.

I don't care if we win a trophy this season. I just want to finish top four and us to look like anything resembling a TEAM.

I just want us to take a step in the right direction.

This! And with Koeman this is impossible.

 

[serghei]

Ten Hag may not be as obssessed with possession as true Spanish Cruyffistas, but in many areas he has learned a lot from Pep, and he himself has said it. Same with Nagelsmann and Tuchel.

Nageslmann went as far as saying Pep's Barca is his role model. I think it's fair to say that they are partial to dominating the opponent by pass & move quick football (hence why pressing, high line, fluid positioning, triangles and frequent overloads are present in a high degree in their teams) with a more pragmatic twist.

Let's say that if Pep's Barca is an espresso, their football is a caffe late. Same core with some changes, which come mainly from less perfectionism and idealism, but more pragmatism.

Our DNA has been perverted by managers who don't know what it means exactly, much less displaying it on a game by game basis through compex tactics.

The playing style of a team is directly influenced by the manager. To say that our style is outdated you need another Pep-like naming. We did not have that since the man left nearly 10 years ago.

 

[Raketa10]

ten hag may not be as obssessed with possession as true spanish cruyffistas, but in many areas he has learned a lot from pep, and he himself has said it. Same with nagelsmann and tuchel.

No way in hell he'll leave Ajax in the middle of the season and we need a new manager ASAP. IMHO only Xavi and Gallardo are our options right now. Problem with Gallardo is that he can't come before the end of the season, so he is unavailable until 12th of December. If we'll wait until than it could end up being to late.

 

[TacticsTim]

Truth is frenkie doesn't have a singld thing he is good at besides running.
He is average to bad at every aspect of the game. People shit on Arthur but frenkie is the same player just more mobile and can last 90 min. In reality they have the same low skill level

 

[Raketa10]

Truth is frenkie doesn't have a singld thing he is good at besides running.
He is average to bad at every aspect of the game. People shit on Arthur but frenkie is the same player just more mobile and can last 90 min. In reality they have the same low skill level

That's bullshit. You obviously didn't watch any game he played for Ajax. He was absolutely superb during his last season there. Same things are people saying for Griezmann, Coutinho etc. How come all of them suck here but were absolutely fantastic under decent managers and in organized systems? It's easy to shit on someone but sometimes people should wonder how come every single player sucks here?

 

[TacticsTim]

That's bullshit. You obviously didn't watch any game he played for Ajax. He was absolutely superb during his last season there.

What is he good at? In what way does he impact the game? One month of scoring goals last season was his only good period at Barcelona