KingMessi
SiempreBlaugrana
What's the rush? Even if the ban had been overturned, we weren't going to bring them back in January. Deulofeu will come back in the summer, and we'll probably pay Sevilla a compensation fee to bring back Denis as well.
Gerard Deulofeu
- Thread starter IraqiCulé
- Start date
What's the rush? Even if the ban had been overturned, we weren't going to bring them back in January. Deulofeu will come back in the summer, and we'll probably pay Sevilla a compensation fee to bring back Denis as well.
Oh, I'm sorry. I was under the impression that we were discussing Messi when playing alongside Suarez. My mistake. I don't even know why Suarez was on my mind. The general assumption was that Suarez would play the position in front of Messi that Munir/Sandro were occupying but that all went out the window when Suarez actually started playing, for some reason.
So when you look at a player like Messi, you see a player that needs... space? No. Messi has been by far his most productive for us when he has had two wingers on both sides of him supporting him and feeding him the ball. At one point we had Messidependencia, and even Messi alone at that time was far better than everything the team is producing now. We're shoehorning Suarez into our lineup, abandoning the concept of actual wingers, and shoving Messi out of the false 9 position because... Suarez. If we were to go back to playing Neymar as a LW and using Pedro or Rafinha (Or even Deulofeu upon his return, if he maintains his form) on the RW with Messi as false 9 we'd go back to seeing that form. Messi will be at his best when the team is actually built to make him most effective. Playing him on the RW minimizes his touches and his opportunities to score. It's no coincidence that he's lost the last two Balon d'or after Tata and Lucho started butchering the formula that earned him his throne as the greatest ever.
Here we see Messi score from the left, right, and center positions. His teammates set him up for quite a few tap ins (Of which he scarcely gets anymore, for reasons I could discuss with you for days) and is able to operate with minimal space even without having a striker in front of him. Lucho's insistence on using Suarez and ditching key facets to our game, like an operating midfield and wingers, is the reason we haven't seen this Messi at all this season. Players like Pedro and Deulofeu are exactly what the team needs but instead we bought a player who would have been sold to Stoke by now if he was a few years younger and didn't cost 86m.
Alik
Moderator
Huh?
I don't get what you could possibly be confused about.
I don't think False 9 would have worked against Atletico, their default technique is flood the middle and leave the wings open for hopeless crossing since their confident in their ariel ability, they'd just stick 2 midfielders and 2 cbs on him the entire game, double team Neymar and leave Pedro to do whatever he wanted on the RW (If we had a better RW then maybe it might change some stuff). Messi on the wing throws a huge wrench into opposition tactics cause its harder to over-mark someone on the wing and Messi dribbles better on the wing imo(Or atleast more consistently), with the space he has the opportunity to use his pace more regularly and doesnt have to worry about dropping back to defense to bring the ball up to try and create something.
Edit: Thinking about it its really just Atletico, any team that employs Simeone tactics will force us to use Messi on the wing, even regular busses like with chelsea False 9 will probably work with a good RW but atletico is different.
Edit: Thinking about it its really just Atletico, any team that employs Simeone tactics will force us to use Messi on the wing, even regular busses like with chelsea False 9 will probably work with a good RW but atletico is different.
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KingMessi
SiempreBlaugrana
What really confused Atleti is when we basically converted to a 3-3-1-3, in attack, with Rakitic occupying the rightwing and Alves moving to midfield:
Neymar--Suarez--Rakitic
-----------Messi-----------
---Iniesta--------Alves----
-----------Busi-------------
Alba----Masche--Pique----
And with Messi/Rakitic interchanging continuously.
Neymar--Suarez--Rakitic
-----------Messi-----------
---Iniesta--------Alves----
-----------Busi-------------
Alba----Masche--Pique----
And with Messi/Rakitic interchanging continuously.
Yeah its not as simple as just sticking Messi on the wing but Suarez's presence occupying the CBs is a must, a false 9 in his situation would get followed and harrased more but as a true 9 Suarez is there mainly making runs as opposed to Messi trying to get on the ball and create.
KingMessi
SiempreBlaugrana
With teams that crowd the middle while parking the bus, the current system allows us to put 4 players (Neymar, Messi, Suarez, Rakitic) occupying the defense. The fullbacks are more withdrawn, with Alba overlapping as a winger occasionally and Alves as a false midfielder (which allows for more defensive stability). One of the biggest things that we saw in the last match was Ter Stegen's sweeping, which also allowed us to outnumber Atletico in defense, and allowed for quicker transitions from defense to attack.
Having Suarez out there helped once, because Atleti weren't prepared. The second game we won because of a penalty won from a free kick. False-9 isn't the problem when it comes to getting past Atleti, the problem there is the midfield that isn't capable of producing. Our attacks came almost entirely from the wings and at several points Messi (Yes, Messi) had to drop back to cover the curiously attacking midfield minded Alves. The few times we did come down the middle we were the most effective, but since our 9 is pretty much useless when it comes to scoring that didn't result in anything solid. If Sandro was given decent minutes and given a chance to build up a goal tally he could do the job of occupying defenders as well, but he'd somehow be more likely to score. He's shown himself to have a much better nose for goal than Suarez has so far.
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
Having Messi in the center is useless if your wingers can't beat their man and midfield is not creating at all. Neymar can, the others in the 1st team squad cannot. And the midfield? Not much creativity there. Everything goes slowly.
I also thought Messi should be in the center or behind Neymar and Suarez or a CF, but right now it looks like Messi out on the right where he can drift to the center, interchange with Rakitic, Alves and also beat the man is better. Also gives him more space and options and he don't have to drop down deeper. We're playing faster, better, and like a team. Everyone seem to be gelling well in the current system.
About Suarez then he really need to start burying those chances, but I'm not too worried yet. Not sure whether Sandro will actually be better. Suarez got his reputation. The opposition respect him and won't let him be alone. That's why it becomes so difficult when you have to mark Neymar, Suarez and Messi. With Sandro it could be different although he surely need to get more chances, especially now that Munir is back with the B team.
I think you overrate Deulofeu a lot. He still got a long way to go. I hope he keeps up the good performances in the longer run, because before these games this month, he has been dire(and I've watched many of his matches). Not good at all and I don't give a fuck about how many assists he had prior to these games. You can be shit in a game and then get an assist or a goal, Cristiano Ronaldo being the prime example of that.
I also thought Messi should be in the center or behind Neymar and Suarez or a CF, but right now it looks like Messi out on the right where he can drift to the center, interchange with Rakitic, Alves and also beat the man is better. Also gives him more space and options and he don't have to drop down deeper. We're playing faster, better, and like a team. Everyone seem to be gelling well in the current system.
About Suarez then he really need to start burying those chances, but I'm not too worried yet. Not sure whether Sandro will actually be better. Suarez got his reputation. The opposition respect him and won't let him be alone. That's why it becomes so difficult when you have to mark Neymar, Suarez and Messi. With Sandro it could be different although he surely need to get more chances, especially now that Munir is back with the B team.
I think you overrate Deulofeu a lot. He still got a long way to go. I hope he keeps up the good performances in the longer run, because before these games this month, he has been dire(and I've watched many of his matches). Not good at all and I don't give a fuck about how many assists he had prior to these games. You can be shit in a game and then get an assist or a goal, Cristiano Ronaldo being the prime example of that.
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KingMessi
SiempreBlaugrana
Come on man! You have to be kidding me. The likes of Godin would EAT Sandro alive.
Suarez has only been playing with us for 3 months. He had basically no preseason. And was banned for 4 months. It'll take some time for him to adjust.
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You can't say that False-9 isnt the problem or atleast part of the problem definitively as Suarez had his chances in that game due to the Midfield and he was generally horrible with his touch and close control in that game, as you say, although idk how much better sandro would actually be, a quality CF would have put us ahead and the score would be more accurate of the performance overall.
Playing Messi in the center has much more value than on the wing because of the linkup with Neymar. Play him next to Neymar and the two will win the match for us by themselves, as they did last night. As far as the midfield goes, that's also Lucho's fault. Remember back when we supposedly had the best midfield in the world? We played a lot quicker then. If you think the reason we don't is the age of our players you should try taking Zubi's old spot as sporting director, as you'd be perfect.
The system we had before Suarez got unbanned was better than the current one. Messi playing behind the two strikers brought the best out of both of them. Even the B teamers Munir and Sandro were putting up some solid performances next to Neymar and in front of Messi. It boggles the mind why we can't do that anymore. And no, we are not playing better. We had Messi and Neymar (Finally reunited) save us in the second half that gave the squad confidence, but every game it's the same story: We're awful until some Messi magic boosts the team. Why the team can't be motivated to actually play until Messi saves the day is on Lucho, once again.
I can be pretty sure that if Sandro was one on one with the keeper he wouldn't have fired over the crossbar and fallen to his knees in disbelief. That doesn't matter, though. Munir is the best striker in La Masia in Lucho's mind and if we ever need to call one up he will be the one called. Suarez needs to get it together, because we're moving into the most crucial part of the season and he hasn't shown us anything close to what one could consider a world class striker. It's probably down to him playing in a much more difficult league, but if he can't adapt by the time we play City I would be very worried if I were you.
He's still better than Pedro, and it's not like Pedro brings something to the team that any youngster couldn't. Obviously Deulofeu has a long way to go, as he's 20 years old. He's improving and I like that. I've said numerous times that I wouldn't expect him to be able to contribute to the team until he's at least 23 years old, which is still 2 years and some months away. I get that he was hyped to the moon and hasn't been able to immediately destroy top flight football as some had hoped, but he's doing very well for a kid his age. Varane is a similar age and is allowed to make all number of mistakes for both Madrid and France even if he costs his teams the win because it's understood that he's young while also being recognized how much potential he has, and he does put in solid performances many times when asked. Of course, he was given a chance to wait for his chance to prove himself with Madrid, while Barca hasn't given Deulofeu a single week of first team football of even sitting on the bench and hoping to impress with the few odd minutes here and there.
Co0ter
Senior Member
I didn't see much of the Messi and Neymar magic until they were down to 10 men. Just sayin.
Messi can score 1,000 goals, mostly against La Liga teams and I couldn't care less. The fact is, and quite obviously true, is that the strong teams man mark Messi EASILY out of the match during the big games. They force him to drop back and Pedro/Sanchez were useless far out wide and the midfield had no pace or directness to score.
Neymar-Suarez-Messi is far less predictable and way more difficult to mark. If Suarez was in better scoring form everyone would be overwhelmed in tears stating how it's the second coming of Henry-Eto'o-Messi.
Messi can score 1,000 goals, mostly against La Liga teams and I couldn't care less. The fact is, and quite obviously true, is that the strong teams man mark Messi EASILY out of the match during the big games. They force him to drop back and Pedro/Sanchez were useless far out wide and the midfield had no pace or directness to score.
Neymar-Suarez-Messi is far less predictable and way more difficult to mark. If Suarez was in better scoring form everyone would be overwhelmed in tears stating how it's the second coming of Henry-Eto'o-Messi.
Alik
Moderator
Sorry, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
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