Gerardo "Tata" Martino

[JamDav1982]

You have a different opinion. That's mine. For some clubs, not getting relegated is what makes a season successful. For Barça, is winning titles and playing well. Just one or the other won't suffice.

Of course it is about winning titles but sometimes if the team has played well and been coached well they will still fail to do that. While that doesnt make the season a success it doesnt make it a failure either.

More people moaned about Titos first season than Peps last and Tito won more that year.

 

[Flavia]

Of course it is about winning titles but sometimes if the team has played well and been coached well they will still fail to do that. While that doesnt make the season a success it doesnt make it a failure either.

More people moaned about Titos first season than Peps last and Tito won more that year.

Because Barça was humilliated by Bayern at the Camp Nou. Of course people would moan about that. If by any chance Barça wins the CL this year, but loses el clasico at home in a shameful fashion, people would also moan a lot about it. But the season wouldn't be a failure by any means.

The goal is to win titles. Failing to do so is, as the name says, failure.

 

[serghei]

The goal is to win titles. Failing to do so is, as the name says, failure.

Exactly how Lucho put it.

Of course it is about winning titles but sometimes if the team has played well and been coached well they will still fail to do that.

It is a failure in the end JamDav. For example, not transforming chances into goals is a failure. If you play better than the opponent and you don't qualify or don't win the game, something must have went wrong. You say that the team can play great and still miss a title. In La Liga that is simply not true, since we already made mistakes. Past mistakes count too. It is not good enough for instance to play great from a point onwards. What you messed up in the past can still bite you in the ass in the end. In CL, yea, it's possible to go out if just one thing (the finnishing, the keeper, a referee's mistake) goes wrong, that is why I value La Liga higher than the CL. Champions League depends on luck a lot.

 

[JamDav1982]

Exactly how Lucho put it.



It is a failure in the end JamDav. For example, not transforming chances into goals is a failure. If you play better than the opponent and you don't qualify or don't win the game, something must have went wrong. You say that the team can play great and still miss a title. In La Liga that is simply not true, since we already made mistakes. Past mistakes count too. It is not good enough for instance to play great from a point onwards. What you messed up in the past can still bite you in the ass in the end. In CL, yea, it's possible to go out if just one thing (the finnishing, the keeper, a referee's mistake) goes wrong, that is why I value La Liga higher than the CL. Champions League depends on luck a lot.

So you think Tata was a failure?

You seem to argue he wasnt as the team almost won a domestic double but then go on to say unless Lucho wins the CL or League he will be.

The season can be a failure in terms of trophies but that is different from the manager being a failure and not doing a good job. A manager could do a good job and Barca still win nothing. It is fine lines.

 

[JamDav1982]

Because Barça was humilliated by Bayern at the Camp Nou. Of course people would moan about that. If by any chance Barça wins the CL this year, but loses el clasico at home in a shameful fashion, people would also moan a lot about it. But the season wouldn't be a failure by any means.

The goal is to win titles. Failing to do so is, as the name says, failure.

Do you think Peps last season was a failure and Titos first season was a success?

Lets be honest the Copa is a long way down the list in terms of making a season a success in terms of silverware.

 

[serghei]

A manager could do a good job and Barca still win nothing.

OK. So how do you determine when it's the manager's fault for a loss, and when it's not?

I'm not saying Tata did a good job. I'm saying he did a bad job, mainly because he lost the title in La Liga. I will judge Lucho on the same standards. I'll praise him if he wins La Liga or CL.

Do you think Peps last season was a failure and Titos first season was a success?

Right now, in retrospect, I do.

 

[JamDav1982]

OK. So how do you determine when it's the manager's fault for a loss, and when it's not. By saying the team plays better? That's just not a valid way to objectively asses someone's merits, since it's clearly argumentative. At the moment, Enrique's Barca seems superior. Two months ago, Lucho's Barca seemed worse.

I'm not saying Tata did a good job. I'm saying he did a bad job, mainly because he lost the title in La Liga. I will judge Lucho on the same standards. I'll praise him if he wins La Liga or CL.

In general if the team goes out and creates more chances than the opposition and dominates them on the park there is not much more they can do.

Pep possibly the best manager benefited from really bad luck - Chelsea in 2012 and really good luck - Chelsea in 2009.

Not everthing is within a managers control. The best teams dont always win or the bookies would be broke.

 

[serghei]

In general if the team goes out and creates more chances than the opposition and dominates them on the park there is not much more they can do.

Pep possibly the best manager benefited from really bad luck - Chelsea in 2012 and really good luck - Chelsea in 2009.

Not everthing is within a managers control. The best teams dont always win or the bookies would be broke.

Well, that's just the CL you're talking about. What about the Liga? That's on him, and that La Liga campaign shows the decline in motivation with the squad. That's a sign Pep lost a big part of what made him special.

 

[Alik]

I can see both sides of the argument.

I agree with JamDav that what the manager does with the team and how the team plays is important; and that it is possible for a good team/manager to miss out on all trophies (didn't it happen to Bayern a couple of seasons back?). Sometimes it's just bad luck. Failure is just such a harsh term in a case where the team is on the right path.

That being said, it's important to look at who we lose against. If we end up losing the league and CL, fine. But at this stage with the biggest opposition gone, I really expect us to win the Copa del Rey at least. If a team is playing well like JamDav's scenario, I think no amount of bad luck should be sufficient for us to lose the CdR at this stage.

 

[JamDav1982]

I can see both sides of the argument.

I agree with JamDav that what the manager does with the team and how the team plays is important; and that it is possible for a good team/manager to miss out on all trophies (didn't it happen to Bayern a couple of seasons back?). Sometimes it's just bad luck. Failure is just such a harsh term in a case where the team is on the right path.

That being said, it's important to look at who we lose against. If we end up losing the league and CL, fine. But at this stage with the biggest opposition gone, I really expect us to win the Copa del Rey at least. If a team is playing well like JamDav's scenario, I think no amount of bad luck should be sufficient for us to lose the CdR at this stage.

I said playing well against the good teams. Basically the CL teams, Real and Atletico.

Failing to win copa from here wouldnt fall into that.

 

[hardyboy]

Messi and Mascherano have been called up by Tata MArtino for friendlies against El Salvador (28/03 in Washington DC) and Ecuador (31/03 in New Jersey)

should they go??

 

[pacp_96]

Messi and Mascherano have been called up by Tata MArtino for friendlies against El Salvador (28/03 in Washington DC) and Ecuador (31/03 in New Jersey)

should they go??

Nah. They should tell Tata to piss off. We're going for a treble here for goodness sake.

 

[KingMessi]

Messi and Mascherano have been called up by Tata MArtino for friendlies against El Salvador (28/03 in Washington DC) and Ecuador (31/03 in New Jersey)

should they go??

The club shouldn't allow it. Let the new guys (Dybala/Vietto/etc.) handle El Salvador and Ecuador.

 

[pacp_96]

Not like there is any need for them to go. If people in the US want to see them play then fair enough but aren't we going on a US tour this summer so they can see them then.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Messi and Mascherano have been called up by Tata MArtino for friendlies against El Salvador (28/03 in Washington DC) and Ecuador (31/03 in New Jersey)

should they go??

Do we have other options?