Hans-Dieter Flick

Hansi Flick - how do we rate him?

  • Total voters
    112
Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
serghei said:
I don't know what data you talk about there lol.

This is the data for 2022-23 season.

2022-23.jpg



As you can see...

1st in points, 88 vs 78 (actual winners)
1st in least conceded goals, 20 vs 36 (best defense)
1st in expected points, 79 vs 76 (so called deserved winners)
1st in expected goals, 83 vs 79 (best chance creation)
1st in expected goals against 33 vs 39 (so best defense in terms of preventing chance creation)

2nd only in goals, 70 vs 75. Meaning our players scored fewer goals from more chances compared to Madrid's.

Keep in mind that the league was won something like 4 rounds in advance. So the stats went down in the remaining 4 rounds as the team lost 3 out of the remaining 4 matches due to having nothing to play for, being crowned Champions in round no 34 vs Espanyol.

So we won the league in 2022-23 both in the real and in the "deserving" world.
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Have told you and others many times, to never use Understat,
it is the most crap site there is when talking xStats

Then, good try, but you don't know how to use the stats and it's evident
For instance, no one uses raw xPts anymore, because it calculates merely the raw xG without any differentiation between big and small chances in each game

I gave the most detailed evidenced answer there is:
Game by game, I cited all LL games where we got points we did NOT deserve.
I cited the big chances for those games, and the result
And the total sum of points we undeservedly got amounts to 17

You don't have an answer for that I guess, and you keep mentioning irrelevant stuff
 
delancey

delancey

Senior Member
Xavi won us the league and for that he deserves credit. At the end of the day, luck or lack thereof is a part of anything we do, so it’s really irrelevant how much it contributed to Xavi’s title winning season. He won it fair and square and outperformed the competition.

My issue was always our style of play under Xavi. If I were him, I’d take an Assistant Manager role in the EPL, learn and grow, and move on from there so that no other club will ever have to suffer through his football tactics ever again. 😂😂
 
Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
delancey said:
Xavi won us the league and for that he deserves credit. At the end of the day, luck or lack thereof is a part of anything we do, so it’s really irrelevant how much it contributed to Xavi’s title winning season. He won it fair and square and outperformed the competition.

My issue was always our style of play under Xavi. If I were him, I’d take an Assistant Manager role in the EPL, learn and grow, and move on from there so that no other club will ever have to suffer through his football tactics ever again. 😂😂
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It's true that if he was playing some decent football, we would have looked at the luck issue with different eyes

But playing terrorist haramball that is unwatchable for any Barca fan on the one hand,

And riding on huge luck to win a title on the other

is a combination that is totally unacceptable
 
A

ajnotkeith

Senior Member
Birdy said:
If we look and the underlying defensive metrics, they might look good for the 22/23 team.

STill, the point of the debate was whether we got lucky points, and some objected the fact that we got.
Some with the usual worn out motto 'you don't win trophies by luck' which football has proven wrong time and time again.

The data was presented to them that categorically proves we got 17 more points in games we didn't deserve.
That was all luck plus Stegen.

And that is not only stats, mind you. It's eye test also
We all remember those games and those months of terrible football, that we were discussing in here after each game how lucky we were, and how Stegen saved us in X or Y situation
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It's certainly true that the results on paper were better than what the reality was, of course, because the team being on track for 95 points or so wasn't because of a dominance more than sheer grit and defensive resilience, and some luck helping us along the way.

However, I think it's fair to say we deserved it more than any other team that season, because if we look at the stats for the other teams, they are clearly below ours in that season whichever metric you check for the most part.

What can be said about that season mainly is that Madrid were having a poor season and we took big advantage of that.

The biggest difference between 22-23 and 23-24 in my opinion is that Madrid became much stronger, rather than us getting weaker, even though we did to an extent.
 
Richard.H

Richard.H

Senior Member
Xavi also certainly knew a lot more about LL. It still seems as though Flick is adjusting to the league and not really aware how tactically better it is than Bumdesliga
 
Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
ajnotkeith said:
It's certainly true that the results on paper were better than what the reality was, of course, because the team being on track for 95 points or so wasn't because of a dominance more than sheer grit and defensive resilience, and some luck helping us along the way.

However, I think it's fair to say we deserved it more than any other team that season, because if we look at the stats for the other teams, they are clearly below ours in that season whichever metric you check for the most part.

What can be said about that season mainly is that Madrid were having a poor season and we took big advantage of that.

The biggest difference between 22-23 and 23-24 in my opinion is that Madrid became much stronger, rather than us getting weaker, even though we did to an extent.
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I don't disagree with the above points.
Whether we got lucky or not does not necessarily mean other teams were better.
Madrid 23-24 were certainly a level above Madrid 22-23
 
B

BJJ

Well-known member
Even if Flick is unsuccessful, I still think he's laid out a template and style that should be used by future managers. With better players and a deeper squad this style of play can bring both results and entertainment.
Look at Utd. They are in 14th place. They will back the manager and give him time. People forget that Rijkaard was struggling in his first season too.
If people want boring, defensive football hire Allegri, Conte or Mourinho 🤣.
 
draconifire

draconifire

NTC with a Positive attitude
You know what pragmatism is. It is this:

We are playing gorgeous football in a decade or so. We should have won against Atleti.
That doesn't absolve Flick and his mistakes from previous games, if we had just won 2 out of the 7 that we didn't, we would still be the leader.
So it's entirely his fault that we are practically 3rd.

Xavi won the league and by far we were the best team in LL. But Xavi knows everything about this league and how it functions. And we were still playing HARAM football. And he didnt win anything last season while we got humiliations after another, playing HARAM football.

I would take Gorgeous football over HARAM football any day of the week. And this is Flicks 6 months into the Job. Let's wait and see how he fares at the end of the season.

That's Pragmatismous to you.
 
iniestaGOAT

iniestaGOAT

Senior Member
draconifire said:
You know what pragmatism is. It is this:

We are playing gorgeous football in a decade or so. We should have won against Atleti.
That doesn't absolve Flick and his mistakes from previous games, if we had just won 2 out of the 7 that we didn't, we would still be the leader.
So it's entirely his fault that we are practically 3rd.

Xavi won the league and by far we were the best team in LL. But Xavi knows everything about this league and how it functions. And we were still playing HARAM football. And he didnt win anything last season while we got humiliations after another, playing HARAM football.

I would take Gorgeous football over HARAM football any day of the week. And this is Flicks 6 months into the Job. Let's wait and see how he fares at the end of the season.

That's Pragmatismous to you.
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We played gorgeous football once after 10 games vs Atletico
Stop
 
iniestaGOAT

iniestaGOAT

Senior Member
MontenegrinCuler said:
Well, this is one way to hate on the Flick regime
No argument about tactics, no pulling out stupid stats... just blatant lie and history rewriting
Nice try but unfortunately for you bro, think a good part of us has not hit dementia yet and can remember those games
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Are you dumb or something?
I was responding to the part he said we are playing gorgeous football.
 
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