Ivan Rakitić

[serghei]

Lol, why do you think total football adepts here including me are advocating for using Vidal in midfield? We are well aware we can't play like in 2011 without Pep and better midfielders. That is why we want balance. You are the one who fantesize about playing only defenders who choke under pressure.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Not this again. Who in fuck said anything about barca DNA n shit. All you can come up is your old, moldy strawman so yeah, just double downing on your shit after being caught pants down for umpteenth time. Enjoy your Retardokitic defensive and tall physical looserball for another season. You've earned it.

 

[YodaMaster]

Short, techical Barca Dna midfielders won 1 mighty CL in a 107 years long history before Messi.

These stupid arguments work both ways.

2013 Bayern 4:0
Alves, Busi, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Alexis
2014 Atletico 1:0
Alves, Busi, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Neymar, Fabregas.
We can't score on an away match no matter what we do.
2016 Atletico 2:0
Alves, Busi, Iniesta, Raki, MSN.
No goals, as always.
Psg 4:0
Juve 3:0
Roma 3:0
Liverpool 4:0

In reality, Barca's DNA football won only 1 CL in 107 years.
In 2006, we won a CL, but even then Messi helped in some matches before an injury.
Iniesta played a role, and Xavi played in the first part of a season.

Basically, all Barca's and Spanish NT success came with Xavi-Iniesta (and Messi, of course).

There really aren't any proofs that a pure Barca DNA football can bring success without prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta.
Barca tried after 2011 with a 1/8 success ratio.
Or 1/6 if you remove EV's 2 attempts.
Pep tried without Messi-Xavi-Iniesta with 0/6 ratio in a CL till now.
Spain tried after 2012 with a 0/3 ratio.

So, both sides have proofs on their side.
You can say that more physical players don't work.
I can tell that Barca's DNA without prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi has around 1/10 success ratio at best.

For replies how Real played like Barca, lol.
They had 3 attacking options in possession football, counters and crosses.
We have only a sterile-pass to Messi football for years.
Real has a bone breaker Casemiro who already has several CL titles with Real and a Copa Amrrica title with Brasil.
On the other hand, we have a bone-breaker Busi, lol.
No wonder that we concede 3-4 goals on all away matches.
Real has several aerial towers in Benz, Cr7, Casemiro, Ramos, which make them strong at attacking corners and at defensive corners.
Unlike us, who concede 1 corner-header per tie in a CL.
So, the only similarity between RM and Barca is that they had 2 technical CMs, nothing else.

So, maybe it is time to accept that Pep's football in a CL can work only if you have a perfect team (Messi-Xavi-Iniesta) and opponents who don't know yet how to play against that style.

So, if you don't have Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, and if the year is not 2008-2011 anymore, then the answer is probably:
= Barca's DNA possession based attacking football as a core mixed and upgraded with a modern requirements like some counters, some headers, more pace, more stamina, more fighting spirit etc.

Basically, Pep's Barca mixed with let's say Klopp's Liverpool.
That should be a future of Barca.
And not Pep's Barca from 2011.

Dude are you dumb or what ? I mean for real ?!

Why the fuck world you become a fan of a club if you don’t like that club’s DNA and philosophy ? What’s wrong with you ?
The day I become a fan of Roger Federer and start yelling "Roger’s style is shit, I hate it, he should play like Djokovic" please guys take me to psychiatric hospital.

Btw,
Barca before Cruyff and his philosophy = 0 CL in 80 years.
Barca since adapting Cruyff’s philosophy = 5 CL’s and a shit ton of Ligas in 30 years.
All the CL’s Barca won, was with Cruyff’s disciples who applied his philosophy: Cruyff himself, Rijkaard, Pep, Lucho.

Barca ain’t shit without Cruyff football. Now you go support Stoke City already.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Not this again. Who in fuck said anything about barca DNA n shit. All you can come up is your old, moldy strawman so yeah, just double downing on your shit after being caught pants down for umpteenth time. Enjoy your Retardokitic defensive and tall physical looserball for another season. You've earned it.

BBZ is way less whack in his perspective on Rakitic than 75% of the posters in this thread. Half don't have thought in their brain other than being a cheering section to pile on the scapegoat (be it Rakitic with Saurez and Roberto right there too). There are some notable exceptions with the balance on the whole matter (e.g., not ones who crucify rakitic but don't apply the same principles to the relatively equivalent alternatives in net impact--all positive and negative contributions of the player weighed--the last 2 years). These include though no doubt overlooked some....jakabor, raketa, 1987, jersey, rory, and someone who should def post more--JohnN. Of course in the twitter era, balance and toughtful posts are often overlooked vs the trollish or from the hip zingers that are more funny than accurate.

 

[KingLeo10]

If you consider 1990s onwards, Barca is arguably the most successful club in world football along with Real Madrid. They have more 2 CLs in this time period, but we crush them on La Ligas (competing directly with them to boot, not to mention La Liga has been the top league in the world for at least 10 of those 30 years).

BBZ needs to stop this sadomasochism and go support Juve, Atletico, and Chelsea and wallow in their CL misery. The workhorse, negative football template is a combined 3 W in 12 CL finals.

I'm not saying all is rosy with Barca at the moment. We're turning into losers into Europe of late, but precisely because we're straying from attacking, incisive football (blame on both managers and players) which made us great.

 

[Arizona Scott]

kingleo, i agree with your 1st part, but dont see why pointing out bbz makes much sense vs others. he simply saying some steel in midfield is inportant--not radically changing barcas approach. even if he is radically suggesting changes, that is more appropriate as a fan than those somewhere between outright hating and nonstop whining on 1/3rd of the squad and the club despite the success you mention. those are like Real fair weather and entitled fans that do their club and their players more harm than good.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Who is denying that we need some steel?

 

[Sorin]

The king of false narratives is BBZ. He fabricates his own bullshit theories and then argues against them.

Not to mention that when his bs is debunked, as DonAndres did a couple of posts before, he doubles down and continues to argue and spin it as he's never been wrong before.

Yeah, real arguments from a real fan.

 

[malvolio]

Who is denying that we need some steel?

we need some athleticism, but not really a vidal/medel/nainggolan. ndombele would have been great.

or some offensive mid a la de bruine, who has good physique, beside skills

 

[Calidad]

Someone with the profile of Pogba would be perfect to complete the FDJ-Arthur trio. He’s such a good all rounder - good physicality, technique, passing range, goal scorer and doesn’t get bullied. He’s inconsistent but his skill set would compliment the midfield excellently.

He’s quite unique though and I’m not sure what players there are our there with a similar profile.

Maybe Havartz? But he’ll probably go for 70m plus anyway.

I like Vidal, but if acceptable offers (25m+) come in for him and Rakitic, I’d let them both go. If a 100m offer comes in for Coutinho, then likewise.

 

[Potroh]

Who is denying that we need some steel?

I do.
You only need steel when you are short of GOLD.
But in case you want something strong as steel, rather try to find (or cultivate) some diamonds...

 

[Arizona Scott]

The king of false narratives is BBZ. He fabricates his own bullshit theories and then argues against them.

Not to mention that when his bs is debunked, as DonAndres did a couple of posts before, he doubles down and continues to argue and spin it as he's never been wrong before.

Yeah, real arguments from a real fan.

sorry the spin and lack of objectivity about this player is so much thicker from the haters. i dont know anyone who thinks rakitic is ideal, but we havnt had better options until perhaps this year, and even now it is not clear whether he, busi, arturo or someone else (couts, ag) would best compliment fdj and arthur. anyone who says with confidence what the best combination would be is well completely overconfident--or to be less polite talking out of their as*.

and by the way i know i am far more bullish on arthur than bbz is, that is fine, it is opinion and judgement --no data either way.

 

[Xaviniesta]

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[BBZ8800]

Barca before Cruyff and his philosophy = 0 CL in 80 years.
Barca since adapting Cruyff’s philosophy = 5 CL’s and a shit ton of Ligas in 30 years.
All the CL’s Barca won, was with Cruyff’s disciples who applied his philosophy: Cruyff himself, Rijkaard, Pep, Lucho.

Barca ain’t shit without Cruyff football. Now you go support Stoke City already.

This is stat-twisting.

For example:
1. when EV wins La Liga=EV is shit and our win is due to Messi
2. then why the same doesn't apply to Barca's DNA and Cruyff?
My point: you can't know whether our CLs are due to our system or due to Messi.

Again, Cruyff came here in 1988/89.
I mean, if you said that we followed Cruyff's principles sine 1988, then look at our CL results before Messi:
1992, Cruyff: winners
1993, Cruyff: lost in a round of 16 to Cska Moscow 3:4
1994, Cruyff: lost in a final to Milan 0:4
1995, Cruyff: lost in 1/4 to Psg 2:3
1996: -
1997: -
1998: ended 4th in a group stage, behind: Dynamo Kiev, Psv and Newcastle. We lost 0:7 on aggregate to Dinamo Kiev, for example.
1999: ended 3rd in a group stage, behind Man Utd and Bayern.
Our results that year vs big teams: Man Utd 3:3, 3:3, Bayern 1:2, 0:1.
2000: semifinals, lost 1:4 and 2:1 to Valencia
2001: another group stage exit, 3rd place behind Ac Milan and Leeds.
2002: semis, lost 0:2, 1:1 to Real.
2003: 1/4, lost 2:3 to Juventus.
2004: -
2005: round of 16: lost 4:5 to Chelsea.

Then you have Spain:
World cups:
semis in 1950.
And then zero semis until 2010 when they won.

Spain on Euros:
Winners in 1964.
Finalists in 1984.
Winners in 2008 and 2012.

So, Spain:
15 World cups. Won ONLY when they had Xavi and Iniesta.
10 Euros. Won in 1964 and in 2008 and 2012 with Xavi and Iniesta.

So, Spain played 25 World cups and Euros in their history.
Won 4 titles. 3 of those with Xavi-Iniesta.
So, IS Spain a football force since always or mostly lately due to Xavi and Iniesta?

The same is with Barca since Cruyff, BEFORE Messi: 11 attempts, 1 CL win.

So, some "weird" coincidences:
1. Netherlands plays a total football and yet they won only 1 big title, Euros in 1988.
Since Cruyff and 70s, they had 17 attempts: won 1 big tournament.
2. Spain was meh before Xavi and Iniesta.
3. Barca had 1/11 CL wins before Messi in 2006'
4. Pep has 0/6 CL wins without Messi-Xavi-Iniesta
5. Barca has 1/8 since 2012 when Messi-Xavi-Iniesta weren't in their prime anymore.

So, my point is: is there a chance that Barca's DNA and Dutch football is good and beautiful but usually NOT GOOD enough in semis and finals where they usually lose to more pragmatic teams?
Also, the only time when Barca and Spain had their golden era was during Messi-Xavi-Iniesta.

So:
Imo, Barca's DNA football can win ONLY when everything is perfect.
In 90% of other seasons, we will play beautiful but eventually lose to counterattacking English, German or Italian teams, which we are doing since always.
Barca's DNA football worked perfectly with Messi-Xavi-Iniesta. Before them and after them, it was meh, a way weaker version of that football.

Now, since we don't have Xavi-Iniesta anymore and Messi is 32, do you guys think that a pure Barca's DNA football can win WITHOUT those 3 guys?
And especially when Messi will be gone?

So, yes, Dutch football is our core, but my point is, our Barca's DNA football needs to be upgraded with some new additional factors, like:
1. a 3-way attacking with possession, counters and headers
2. midfield with some physique
3. a few players with some aggression, a fighting spirit and a few true leaders
4. some height in defense not to concede corners in a CL as easily as today

For the end, youa re talking about Cruyff, and even though he has elevated our club to a world class level, I think that there is a lot of a revisionism in people's minds today.
Have you actually watched Barca and our CL exits during Cruyff?
1994: final: Milan 0:4

1995: 1/4: Psg, 1:1 and 1:2. We conceded from a corner (AGAIN, as always) and Psg has hit the post 5 times before they have scored a goal, lol.
So, we almost conceded 7 under Cruyff.
** Btw, these highlights look like a classical Barca from 2016 against AM or in 2017 against Psg and Juve, isn't it? A good old shit since 1993'.

1993: round of 16: 3:4 defeat to CSKA Moscow. 1:1 in Moscow, leading 2:0 at home and losing 2:3 in the end.
We conceded from a corner again (I am shocked, what a surprise with all these short players)

So, when you remove Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, Barca-Cruyff football is beautiful, but in 90% of cases: we always lose in extremely insane and wtf ways for 30 years in a row.
This is why I have said that we need Cruyff's principles as a core, mixed with some modern additions, which we usually didn't have in these 30 years.

 

[Potroh]

This is stat-twisting.

I just guess that "stat twisting" is not really unfamiliar in your household.

This is why I have said that we need Cruyff's principles as a core, mixed with some modern additions, which we usually didn't have in these 30 years.

Well, I don't even mention your known formulas and repetitions.
Just try to grasp one single thing regarding your own agenda:

Neither HEIGHT, STRENGTH nor a TALL center forward, or taller defenders belong to the "modern additions" - as you have just said.
These players or ingredients belong to the PAST of the game's evolution.

Therefore - regardless how many times you repeat the same thing with stats or without - your imagination of an "ideal" team simply points towards a mid-table English team, where you can find all that you're looking for.
With Barca's tradition, ambition, alas, things are not that easy, that's why the club spends countless dollars on buying extremely unique players, because, though the board is retarded, but not as stupid as thinking that THE solution for guaranteed success could simply be buying tall and physically strong footballers, who are better with their heads.

The agenda you've been trying to present is an absolute simplification of the game itself.
Similarly the stats quoted and collected, do NOT represent the game, those are for QUICK and easy comparisons.
It's good you are mentally looking for solutions, as well as future success, but you're looking at the wrong place...