Ivan Rakitić

[BBZ8800]

Jesus, when people write about Rakitic and scoring goals, you't think they're talking about Frank Lampard. He hasn't scored a key goal for us since the CL final in 2015.

If Rakitic is such a great scoring threat form midfield, how come he never found one of his shots when we needed them, vs Atletico, Rome, Juventus, PSG, Liverpool?

You mean like Messi, Neymar, Suarez, Dembouz, or more or less the whole Barca team who scored ONE BIG ZERO in the last 6 big away matches?
Atletico 1:0
Atletico 2:0
Psg 4:0
Juve 3:0
Roma 3:0
Liverpool 4:0

Btw, my post was about La liga.

Anyway, I can write 20 000 lines about imo why Busi-Frenkie-Arthur will not be as good as you think, especially with Semedo, Dembele-Griezz-Messi.

But let's save us from 20 000 lines and going into circles.
Let's do the same what Dembele did:
We were fighting left and right for weeks whether he is gold or he sucks.
Whether he has a low IQ or not and we were going in circles for 100s of pages.

Then matches came, and there is no need to post anything anymore.
Dembele and his IQ have spoken on the pitch, lol.
No need to fight anymore at all, lol.
He has resolved the mystery.

So, in short: I think that Busi-Frenkie-Arthur will be meh and possibly even worse than a midfield from last season.
Especially in a combination without Suarez in attack (and Semedo as a creative RB).

When the first matches with this lineup will come, you'll probably see what I meant.

** a random thought for the end, I have read an article from someone from Bayern, who said: we lost because we had possession higher than 65%.
That is not good and that is too much. It is hard to win and create chances when you have that much possession (something along those lines).

So, my point: you need to have technique and possession, but only up to a certain point.
After that, you aren't gaining anything.
Too much possession is only creating even more from our slow granny possession sideway football against parked buses, where we can't have counters, through balls or crosses.
And now add a sterile midfield (no shots, no key passes) trying to fight against parked buses paired with Semedo (or even worse, an attack without a true 9 against 8 defenders in the box).
We will have plenty of rondos, possession and useless 1-2s around 30 meters from the goal without real shots on goal, except Messi, of course.

Once when you have enough of possession and technique, you now need key passes, shots, through balls, crosses, longshots, regular finishes.
Imo, Busi-Frenkie-Arthur might work ONLY if Suarez will go riot and score 25+ goals in La Liga.
If Suarez won't score, we are dead with that attack and with that midfield where no one can shoot (paired with Semedo).
** Btw, I am talking about La Liga matches against Girona and Getafe, not about Liverpool at Anfield.

But I am writing too much, let's wait the first matches with that midfield.

 

[mc_lovin]

Imo, Busi-Frenkie-Arthur might work ONLY if Suarez will go riot and score 25+ goals in La Liga.

Those players arent frozen in time. Arthur and Frenkie have room to grow. I just want us to trust the talent. I know you dont rate Arthur, but being a key player in a Copa Libertadores and Copa America win is a massive achievement for a 22 years old player. Both matching Rakitics output isnt too outlandish with consistent playing time. Maybe I am too optimistic, but I just dont want to see another performance like Rakitic vs Liverpool, which is bound too happen.

You can blame our forwards for the recent failures in CL, which is justified to a degree (Messis positional play, Dembeles injuries, Suarezs incosistency and the least said about Coutinho the better), but we have the players to fix our midfield now first and foremost.



Other than that I just want to emphasise Rakitics performance vs Liverpool again, which was just shocking. Cant say that enough. Busquets looked decent compared to that, which says it all.

 

[KingLeo10]

Still the greatest cancer at Barcelona.

Won't even let me enjoy a friendly.

The absolute state of this washed up, decrepit clown.

 

[FCB1987]

Other than that I just want to emphasise Rakitics performance vs Liverpool again, which was just shocking. Cant say that enough. Busquets looked decent compared to that, which says it all.

Busquets at Old Trafford was the worst central midfield performance I've ever seen from a Barca player. At least with Rakitic at Anfield, the entire team was playing poorly.

 

[MTL_Barca]

Rakitic provided 5 goals and 10 assists last season, that's not bad but it's not like not playing him would suddenly put a lot of extra pressure on the forwards.

Vidal had better stats if we take minutes played into account.

 

[BBZ8800]

Those players arent frozen in time. Arthur and Frenkie have room to grow. I just want us to trust the talent. I know you dont rate Arthur, but being a key player in a Copa Libertadores and Copa America win is a massive achievement for a 22 years old player. Both matching Rakitics output isnt too outlandish with consistent playing time. Maybe I am too optimistic

Oh, this is one of the key things where I don't agree with 90% of this forum.
Imo, you guys are too romantic and you are overrating personal development. Or: you are overrating HOW MUCH a player can grow in a specific skill.

Here is why, and my estimation.
I know that it is hard to put talent and skills in numbers, but take these numbers only as a principle, not as something set in stone, to explain what I am trying to say.

Now, each player is using 100s of skills while playing.
Pace, stamina, strength, tactical skills, marking, tackling, passing, creativity, dribbling, shooting, press resistance, aerial game, reading of the game, off the ball movement, movement with the ball etc.
Further, we all agree that for some positions : you need one set of skills and for other positions, you need a different set of skills.

But now comes a key part:
= every single skill is consisted of 2 parts:
1. natural talent
2. learned part

Let's say in terms of numbers that skills can go from 1 to 100. After 100, you are at a world class level in a specific skill, like Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc.
Now, another thing is, IMO, that a natural talent is ALWAYS more important than the learned skill.
And NO MATTER how much you are learning, you can almost never beat the guy who has way better natural talent in a specific skill.

Let's take an example:
Dribbling:
Let's say that Neymar has a natural skill already at 90 in dribbling.
Now, in my estimation, each player can improve every single skill in learning by only, let's say 30 points.
In that learning part, there are other factors again, let's say:
1. player's will and ability to learn (motivation and IQ) can bring him 1 to 15 points
2. and a good coach and good teammates who will guide him, another 1 to 15 points
So, if a player plays under Valverde, he will improve only let's say 2-3 points.
While if he plays under Pep for a few years, he can improve for 15 or even 20 points. I can agree on that.
Regarding player's personal growth in terms of motivation (how much is he willing to learn and improve every day) and regarding his IQ, the same story:
= if he doesn't want to learn too much (or if he is quite dumb), he will naturally over years improve only for let's say 1-5 points.
= on the other hand, if a player is like CR7 and is working on himself every day, he can improve 15 or even 20 points in majority of skills due to that motivation and self improvement will.

Now, let's go back to a dribbling skill.
If Neymar has a natural skill 90.
Then, in terms of learning, he can add additional 30 or even 40 points on top of that natural talent.
1. if he will be lazy and have a low IQ, he will improve only for 5 points. That is 90+5=95 skills
2. if he will work hard and work on his skills every day in all aspects, he can jump to 110 in skills eventually.
Now add a good coach:
1. if he will be lazy and have EV as a coach, he will improve only 90+5+5=to 100 in skills
2. if he will be motivated to learn by himself paired with Pep as a coach, he could improve by 30-40 points and jump to 120 or 130 in dribbling skills after a few years

So, I agree with you guys in this part that playing under EV or Pep makes a difference in terms of how much will a player improve.
But, as you see, I DON'T agree regarding actual numbers.
A player can improve, but imo, you are overrating that impact of a coach.
I have a feeling that in this example, you think that a player can improve by 50 or even 100 points only because of Pep.
Which I think is impossible.

Let's go further, now let's take Rakitic and his dribbling.
His natural talent for dribbling is bad.
Neymar had 90 skills in a natural talent.
Let's say that Raki has only 30 skills in a natural talent.

Now, we come to a 2nd point:
NO MATTER HOW MUCH WILL Raki WORK and LEARN, he can never be better even than a lazy Neymar.
So, Neymar had a natural skill 90, and even if he is lazy and dumb and even if he is coached by EV, he will get 5+5 skills over time, which means=90+5+5=100 skills in the end.
Raki, if his starting skills are bad (30 points), then even with all the motivation, all the IQ, and Pep coaching him, he can get at max 30-40 additional skills in his dribbling skills.
Which means that in the end, even in the worst case, Neymar will have 100 skills in dribbling (coached by EV and not willing to learn by himself).
While Raki will have 30 starting skills and 30-40 skills earned through life, so he will end at 60-70 skills max. While even a lazy Neymar coached by bad coaches will have 100 in skills.

So, my point here is:
1. yes, every skill can be learned
2. yes, a player can learn if he is willing to learn + if he has a good coach
3. but still, at the end of a day, those improvements are way smaller than a basic natural talent, which is a key factor.
I would say that roughly: 70% is a natural talent and 30% is learning in all skills.

Now, you said that I hate Dembele or Arthur.
I don't hate them.

But here is a problem.
For example, in my estimation, I would say that Dembele has IQ and decisions making at a level let's say 20 (skills can go to 100+).
So, his natural talent in IQ is horrible.
And now, if you apply my theory from above:
1. even if he will work hard, he can gain only 15-20 skills on top of his natural skills in IQ
2. even if he will be coached by Pep, he can again earn only 15-20 skills at max

So, imo, if you give him Pep and if he will work extremely hard for 5 years on his decisions, his decisions in the end will still be only at:
20 skills in a natural talent + 30-40 skills gained over 5 years in PERFECT CIRCUMSTANCES.
= so, he would have 50-60 skills max in IQ, reading of the game, predicting moves etc.
While someone like Ronaldinho, Xavi and similar, who was born with good IQ, decisions making, reading of the game, will start their path with 90 in skills and eventually improve to even 120 or 130 in decisions making.

So, my point here is: Dembele's IQ and decisions making is SO BAD that even with Pep and all the learning, he will still end as average at best in that part.
So, this is where I don't agree with you guys when you say: but he is young, he will improve.
Ok, he is young, but he can't improve in an unlimited amount.
Also: you say: under Pep, he would improve a lot.
Well, he would improve, but HOW MUCH?
Imo, not as much as you think because his natural skill in IQ and decisions is almost deadly low.
Remember Adama Traore, he was so dumb that no coach in the world could have helped him.
Or Alexis Sanchez.

Now, let's go to Arthur.
What I don't like about him, is IMO; that his natural skill in a killer instinct for a forward pass is horribly low.
At 20-30 level.
His natural instincts are always: keep the ball when they attack you.
Don't look at your teammates.
Don't think about whether you can start a deadly counter.
He is only thinking about how to avoid a tackle from an opponent, and not caring too much about the attacking play.

So, if you apply everything from the above, I don't believe that Arthur can improve as much as you think in his key passes, assists and shooting, or about everything in the final third.
So, if you give him Pep and 5 years of self improvement, he will still gain only 30-40 points, which would make him a CM with 60-70 in creative skills, which would still be way below Barca's level.

Regarding a part how he played well for Brasil at Copa.
Well:
1. they played in 4231 formation with a double pivot. Him and Casemiro were defenders and guys who only had to bring the ball into the attacking half.
He didn't have any attacking duties.
2. further, matches at Copa are like fighting Kung Fu, extremely weird suicidal football.
Opponents are running around like crazy, like headless chicken.
Every action and every tackle is on a verge of fight, blood and injuries.

So, basically, this kamikaze type of football is perfect for Arthur.
When an opponent is running like crazy towards him, he will just use his world class press resistant skill and get rid of the opponents.
Basically, South American kamikaze football is a perfect scenery for Arthur and his set of skills.
But now, move him to a slow, granny La Liga where teams park a bus at Camp Nou against us and you have a different story.
No one is running at full speed towards him.
There is no need at all to use your press resistant skills.
And we are playing for 80% of the match in the attacking third, around the box and all we need is players who will DO SOMETHING around the box.
And then, Arthur's play around the box is his weakest area.
Forward passes, dribbles, runs into a box, shooting, scoring, predator instincts.

And again, I don't think that Arthur is a bad player. I would keep him here as an option for certain matches.
But for La liga where we play around the box in majority of matches, he can be useful only in matches against Real, Atletico, and on some tougher away matches.
In easy matches, he is almost useless.
Or, he can work ONLY with Coutinho or a similar deadly creator infront of him (or in 4231 as a double pivot without too much attacking responsibilities).

One more time, this is why my eyes are bleeding when I read "perfect formations" from our forum with:
Busi, Frenkie, Arthur (or Vidal-Frenkie-Arthur) and especially with Dembele-Griezz No9-Messi in attack.

** For the end, regarding my theory from above about natural skills and learned skills.
Try to find examples of players who were an absolute crap in some skills and improved over time to world class levels.
You won't find them, or you will find some 1-2 freaky examples.

This is why I am often talking about deadly flaws and why I have said after 2 matches that Dembele can't make it.
Or that Halil is too dumb to make it etc.
Or that Malcom is just too meh in natural skills and he can't improve enough (through learning) to be good enough for us.

So, in short: I think that you guys are massively overrating that learning part.
And you are too often using:
He is young.
He can develop.
He can iron his flaws.

Btw. Arthur will be 23 in 6 days.
So, how much can he actually improve and learn in problematic skills? I mean, he is 23 already, he is not a kid, but a player entering his prime years.
For example, Iniesta was 24 when Pep came. Do you think that his game has improved that much IN EVERY ASPECT from the age 24 to let's say 2012, aged 28?
Or Busi, he was aged 21 in a final of 2009'. His basic, natural skills were there. Has he changed THAT MUCH since the age of 21? I don't think so. Of course, he improved in reading of the game and in tactical skills, but it is not as if his shooting, dribbling, aerial game, pace, stamina changed much compared to his natural skills.

In that sense, go back to Dembele, Arthur (or even Semedo, soon to be 26, with his horrible game in the attacking half): how much do you think that these guys can improve compared to their natural skills and a natural talent?
Again, you are throwing a Pep excuse too easily.

A thought for the end?
= maybe is Pep picking ONLY players with good natural skills and with a high IQ and work ethic who can gain additional 30-40 skills on top of their natural skills?
= and is avoiding dumb players (who can't learn, obviously) or players who have too low starting (natural) skills because with them, no amount of coaching can improve their game to a required world class level?

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], Rakitic scores far too few goals for that to be a real asset and make us forget his many issues.

 

[mc_lovin]

The thing is I dont compare Rakitic to Neymar dribbling wise. Theres just no way that Rakitic could ever close that gap.

But Arthur compared to Rakitic passing wise? Hell yeah, thats possible. Arthur showed plenty of promise, he could have easily gotten more assists last season. In that sense you cant compare him to someone like Semedo, who really has shown nothing. I wont say he will reach Xavi heights, but first steps first - the Rakitic benchmark is doable. I am quite cynical regarding football and if Arthur doesnt reach those heights he should be gone. But in every other metric hes already a far better footballer than Rakitic, which is my initial argument. Why trust Rakitic after the last 2 seasons? He had his chance. I would rather give our young players a chance, who are already proven, then another season of Rakitic playing "decent" and then crumbling in a big CL game.

The "point" system is retarded as well, football doesnt work like that. If a player has shown certain skills theres a good chance he can improve his consistency in said skills with playing time, importance for his team and coaching.


Other than that you cant really argue against me with Dembele-Griezmann-Messi, because I am highly sceptical as well.


Edit: I didnt say you hate Dembele ;D Thats just ignoring my post and spitting more propaganda. You have a template you just post when certain key words are said? ;P The topic is Rakitic, why distract.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], Rakitic scores far too few goals for that to be a real asset and make us forget his many issues.

True. Compare Rakitic when he first came to Barca and today, HUGE difference. He was a REAL workhorse, not the 50% effort machine he is now. Now he is jogging around the pitch and doing "something". Rakitic used to be very valuable player five years ago, but today garbage. Occasinal goal or assist is not going to hide his faults.

 

[Potroh]

Imo, you guys are too romantic and you are overrating personal development. Or: you are overrating HOW MUCH a player can grow in a specific skill.

Actually I admire your fanatic zeal and "thinking aloud" style, but apart from not agreeing with most of your messages and thoughts, there are some things that you can still study about the game, regardless if you are 40 or 95.

- You cannot put everything in NUMBERS, even if it is appealing to your own thought process.

- Because you seem to either ignore or simply you don't understand the importance of TALENT, you are mistaken of just too many basic assumptions that you later try to envelop in the agenda.

- There are quite many elements of this game that simply can NOT be learnt, studied, territories, where no further development is possible.
The easiest of these is dribbling, or dribbling skills, that are born ingredients. Dribbling is nothing else but speedy decision making, done in milliseconds, one has to be born with those.
Dribbling cannot be studied or practiced. Things that can be studied are: when to dribble and what to do after a successful attempt. These can be further developed but dribbling, as such, can not, be it Neymar, Messi, Hazard or Joe from the 3rd league.

- There is no such a thing like "forward passing" skills - that you tend to take away from Arthur - passing is simply passing, regardless the direction. The rest is evaluated by the TACTICS department, the "where to pass and when" belongs to the coach, although there are players with born talent to very accurately do long passes, key-passes, but still it is the coach who utilizes these talents.
(When the coach tells the player for the 20th time: "you should have waited, that risky pass was unnecessary as we lost possession", the 21th time the player will NOT do it and will keep it safe.)

- Neither Pep nor Valverde knows even 10% of how to dribble - compared to Neymar or Messi - so these coaches will NEVER ever be able to teach these skills to ANYONE. Neither to Neymar, Dembele nor anyone else. That's talent and there's nothing to develop.

The only exceptions are coaches like Zidane, Maradona, etc.who were great footballers, they could, but just could, teach some elements. The Valverde type is not capable of doing that, because he is inferior. Period.
The average coaches teach tactical elements and fast decision making but never dribbling skills.

- Penalties, free-kicks, corners, long-shots, headers, awareness, tactical elements can be practiced and by practice, development is guaranteed. But the MOST important elements of the game cannot be studied and practiced at all.
Zeal, diligence, willpower are great things, but will never make a player able to dribble better.

- A great coach like Pep is, doesn't stand out because he is capable to teach playing-elements to individual players, he is what he is because he can tell the player WHAT to practice and where to put the stress upon. The rest simply comes from the personality of the coach and his psychological instincts.

- Decisions on the pitch are ALWAYS instinctive. There is no time to think and no time to remember what the coach thought and what he expects.
When players are undecided, hesitant, often make an unwanted extra move before doing something, you can bet it just came into their mind what the coach wanted. But there it ends, because ALL moves need to be instinctive, including the coach's special demands.
If these elements do NOT become instinctive eventually, the player is lost in between himself and the external expectations.

I think that you guys are massively overrating that learning part.

No, you are overrating that part, what others try to say is that players eventually get better, but that is not due to new skills having been studied, but due to their better and more mature DECISION making.

 

[JohnN]

One more time, this is why my eyes are bleeding when I read "perfect formations" from our forum with:
Busi, Frenkie, Arthur (or Vidal-Frenkie-Arthur) and especially with Dembele-Griezz No9-Messi in attack.

I don't think anyone here believes that a universal perfect formation exists. It all depends on the opponent and the circumstances.
The one you mention "Busi, Frenkie, Arthur (or Vidal-Frenkie-Arthur)" though, seems like a pretty good formation to utilize, if let's say we had an away game at Anfield, trying to defend a 3-0 lead (CASE 1).

But, maybe it wouldn't be of much use against teams like Granada or Osasuna at Camp Nou, because we won't have to defend as much and they will park the bus. We would need something more adventurous, maybe something like "Frenkie, Arthur / Alena, Coutinho". (CASE 2)

On the other hand, when playing a strong team at home, a team that won't park the bus, but instead will try to play their game too, we would first need
to control the match and then utilize our, arguably, great attackers to score, while being pretty compact at the back. We would need more balance. Maybe we could use something like "Arthur / Busi, Frenkie, Sergi / Alena". (CASE 3)

In the CDR early rounds we could use our subs and alternate between "vidal, alena, puig, sergi". (CASE 4)

I believe what almost every user in this forum has been saying, is that on all possible cases, Rakitic seems to be the odd man out. He doesn't offer anything more than his alternatives, in any department anymore.

In which of the above scenarios, would rakitic be an improvement over any other selected player and why?

 

[Judoman]

There is no such a thing like "forward passing" skills - that you tend to take away from Arthur - passing is simply passing, regardless the direction. The rest is evaluated by the TACTICS department, the "where to pass and when" belongs to the coach,

Most people on the forums don t seem to understand this..

 

[vlad]

Same rakitic played great world cup and was one of the best midfielders on that tournament, long balls, forward passes, defending, everything was on point. He doesnt suddendly turn into average MF when he is playing for barca without a reason. At NT, he had mandzukic, perisic and rebic infront, that guys did their work, exploiting empty spaces behind defence, tracking back, you name it, automaticaly rakitic had more options and less running to cover the pitch. At barca front three doesnt run, they dont track back, they dont exploit empty spaces, nothing, all that is part of the problem why rakitic is playing today like he is, also part that he cant get no rest.

All that said, i want him to go, but thinking how rakitic is biggest problem why midfield doesnt work great, is wrong, good luck to next guy who will have to cover messi's ass and at the same time be danger for opponents.

 

[Xaviniesta]

3 more days left for united to submit a bid for Ivan "i scoreed 3 goals in la liga" Rakitic. The transfer window in england closes on the 9th of August.

If Rakitic is such a great scoring threat form midfield, how come he never found one of his shots when we needed them, vs Atletico, Rome, Juventus, PSG, Liverpool?

Because he chokes hard under pressure. Hence why he was the worst-rated midfielder in all those thrashings.

 

[cro-man]

Bench him till his contract runs out if he doesnt want to leave. We should do the same like real did with bale. Him not wanting to leave means someone needs to leave instead maybe even someone we dont want to leave....