João Cancelo

[serghei]

Marcelo is quite good defensively. His only problem is that he focuses too much on attack and ignores his defensive duties but when he is called to defend, he is quite reliable

Marcelo is a poor defender if I ever saw one. Lacks awareness, doesn't sense where the danger might come from (so he makes positional errors), loses his man pretty often, is not very good in 1 vs 1 if he is the defender in those duels, is caught too advanced multiple times during the game and so on. People say Ramos is not very good in defence. Part of the reason that happens is that he usually plays next to Marcelo, who is considerably worse than Carvajal.

Only reason why Marcelo is WC is because of his vast offensive qualities. Passing, dribbling, link-up play, creativity and even goals. His defensive contrinution is slim and has always been like that imo.

 

[gasgas]

Marcelo is a poor defender if I ever saw one. Lacks awareness, doesn't sense where the danger might come from (so he makes positional errors), loses his man pretty often, is not very good in 1 vs 1 if he is the defender in those duels, is caught too advanced multiple times during the game and so on. People say Ramos is not very good in defence. Part of the reason that happens is that he usually plays next to Marcelo, who is considerably worse than Carvajal.

Only reason why Marcelo is WC is because of his vast offensive qualities. Passing, dribbling, link-up play, creativity and even goals. His defensive contrinution is slim and has always been like that imo.

With Marcelo's vast offensive quality why would you wanna have Cancelo as the lone man on the wing defending against a player of Marcelo's caliber?

 

[serghei]

With Marcelo's vast offensive quality why would you wanna have Cancelo as the lone man on the wing defending against a player of Marcelo's caliber?

I don't know. Why would Madrid want to have Marcelo defending a player like Messi? Blocking players is down to teams' tactics. If Lucho would've insisted with Messi to target Marcelo we would've probably won the clasico. Instead, he played Messi in midfield where he was poor and Marcelo probably had one of the easiest times in a clasico ever, he did what he wanted barely being troubled once. Tactics in defence are global, don't depend on one player. Alves had a gorgeous defensive performance vs Bayern at home (3-0) because everybody participated and we formed a defensive block. Which is what Madrid does in the biggest games, forming defensive compactness to hide players' defficiencies. Marcelo and even Carvajal can be overcome with relative ease in 1 vs 1, but it is hard to catch them in 1 vs 1 often because of how compact Madrid is in defence.

 

[gasgas]

I don't know. Why would Madrid want to have Marcelo defending a player like Messi? Blocking players is down to teams' tactics. If Lucho would've insisted with Messi to target Marcelo we would've probably won the clasico. Instead, he played Messi in midfield where he was poor and Marcelo probably had one of the easiest times in a clasico ever, he did what he wanted barely being troubled once. Tactics in defence are global, don't depend on one player. Alves had a gorgeous defensive performance vs Bayern at home (3-0) because everybody participated and we formed a defensive block. Which is what Madrid does in the biggest games, forming defensive compactness to hide players' defficiencies. Marcelo and even Carvajal can be overcome with relative ease in 1 vs 1, but it is hard to catch them in 1 vs 1 often because of how compact Madrid is in defence.

How does Marcelo defend against Messi when almost all the time Messi plays as CM?
Marcelo is almost always free to do whatever he wants in classicos

The one game we put Roberto and Alves on the right side, is the same game Marcelo could be contained

And BTW vs Bayern Alves had Messi playing as RW very strictly. It was 2 vs 1 Bayern winger which reminds me, Bayern didn't play a winger that day

Anyways you suggested putting Cancelo as the lone RB/RW how will that work out in big games, considering how poor he is defensively and how Messi always goes centrally leaving Cancelo on his own vs whoever the worldclass LW/LB pair he has to face?

 

[serghei]

How does Marcelo defend against Messi when almost all the time Messi plays as CM?
Marcelo is almost always free to do whatever he wants in classicos

The one game we put Roberto and Alves on the right side, is the same game Marcelo could be contained

True. That was our mistake for not playing Messi in the right more.

Anyways you suggested putting Cancelo as the lone RB/RW how will that work out in big games, considering how poor he is defensively and how Messi always goes centrally leaving Cancelo on his own vs whoever the worldclass LW/LB pair he has to face?

Of course it can work out if Cancelo shows great attacking prowess. Defending is a team tactic, when you apply pressure well and play with energy and dedication you defend better. I'd rather have a player who is not that good in defence, but great in attack, hoping he can improve his defensive abilities with time, than one that is average at both ends because he is not even a real RB.

The thing is that when Messi drifts to the center from RW, our RB has to be good enough to go up and create superiority. Roberto is not good enough to do that. Vidal isn't either, him being very good in offense is an overstatement, his passing in shorter spaces and his link-up ability with the people in front of him is not great. Having speed and making an occasional great dribble doesn't make you great in offence at Barcelona. If Cancelo has only that, he won't make it.

Besides, when Barcelona plays really well, teams have trouble putting pressure on our back 4. We never had the strongest defence, we played with Yaya as a CB in a CL final, with 36 years old Sylvinho as LB and Puyol as a RB. Defending is down to the whole team. That's the way it should be. When you play Madrid, Bayern, Atletico, great teams who can hurt you, you need to make your players put more work than usual and that is how defence gets better. By making the offensive players contribute more in defence. How? By being as sharp off the ball as on it. More off the ball movement means more pressure for the other team in their own half, means more mistakes with their passing, means less likely for them to play dangerous balls on our back 4, means easier game for our defenders.

 

[gasgas]

True. That was our mistake for not playing Messi in the right more.


Of course it can work out if Cancelo shows great attacking prowess. Defending is a team tactic, when you apply pressure well and play with energy and dedication you defend better. I'd rather have a player who is not that good in defence, but great in attack, hoping he can improve his defensive abilities with time, than one that is average at both ends because he is not even a real RB.

The thing is that when Messi drifts to the center from RW, our RB has to be good enough to go up and create superiority. Roberto is not good enough to do that. Vidal isn't either, him being very good in offense is an overstatement, his passing in shorter spaces and his link-up ability with the people in front of him is not great. Having speed and making an occasional great dribble doesn't make you great in offence at Barcelona. If Cancelo has only that, he won't make it.

Besides, when Barcelona plays really well, teams have trouble putting pressure on our back 4. We never had the strongest defence, we played with Yaya as a CB in a CL final, with 36 years old Sylvinho as LB and Puyol as a RB. Defending is down to the whole team. That's the way it should be. When you play Madrid, Bayern, Atletico, great teams who can hurt you, you need to make your players put more work than usual and that is how defence gets better. By making the offensive players contribute more in defence. How? By being as sharp off the ball as on it. More off the ball movement means more pressure for the other team in their own half, means more mistakes with their passing, means less likely for them to play dangerous balls on our back 4, means easier game for our defenders.

And you think now it will change and all the sudden Messi will start going to play on the right in big games?

I am not talking about attacking prowess here. I am talking about defence. How can the defence work if we put Cancelo as the lone RB/RW to defend against worldclass pairs of LW/LB e.g Felipe Luis and Carrasco. Knowing for well Cancelo is weak defensively?

Alves is excellent in attack.
How did he fare when Messi would go centrally, and we had no true RW in big games (we played a 4 man midfield with Cesc) and Alves became the only man on the wing?
He was isolated and resorted to crossing the ball as the only option.
And that is what happens when you do not have a RW.

As good as Alves was in defence, he ended getting caught up high in the field because he had to go too high in attack and had no winger to support him

Alves came back to life when we had Messi on the wing because he had support



Remove a RW from our system we are going back to Tito and Tata season, this time with Cancelo who is miles worse defensively


Defence is for the whole team, but you can't play one CB and 9 AMs and expect it to be as solid defensively as a team that plays a balanced formation, no matter how much those AMs try to play compact or whatever


A one man wing is as susceptible as it gets defensively, even worse with Cancelo's well documented defensive weaknesses



Your suggestions are very theoretical
As much as compactness is important, you need a balanced formation to be able to defend well and attack
And a one man wing show is totally the opposite
especially that one man being a prospect

 

[serghei]

Messi would still play RW and Cancelo (or some other player) will play RB. Nothing changes. I am against Messi moving from RW and I always was. But he still needs someone that he can combine with, and right now, with Roberto and Vidal, he doesn't link-up very well with neither. Lacking a very good offensive RB might even be the reason why he goes more centrally to get some action.

 

[gasgas]

Messi would still play RW and Cancelo (or some other player) will play RB. Nothing changes. I am against Messi moving from RW and I always was. But he still needs someone that he can combine with, and right now, with Roberto and Vidal, he doesn't link-up very well with neither. Lacking a very good offensive RB might even be the reason why he goes more centrally to get some action.

It is not.

 

[FlaFCB]

It is not.

Yes, it is. Messi is clearly missing Alves, with who he would link a lot. It's very obvious this is the biggest reason he's moving centrally. To get the ball and to have someone to link up with.

 

[gasgas]

Yes, it is. Messi is clearly missing Alves, with who he would link a lot. It's very obvious this is the biggest reason he's moving centrally. To get the ball and to have someone to link up with.

You're saying. He goes centrally so that he can link with an out of form Rakitic, slow and predictable Gomes and Erratic Denis (turnover machine)?
These are the guys he pursues to link up with instead of Sergi Roberto who is the second best player so far this season bar a few bad games?
He could surely choose better


BTW Sergi Roberto receives the ball quite a lot.

While our midfield sees very little time on the ball

If Messi really liked to link up, he would be closer to Roberto so that he is able to link up.
Instead, Roberto gets the ball and has to pass it back to midfield/ defence because there is no winger to associate with , HENCE all the complaints from Serghei and others that Sergi is poor in attack

You know what I think
Messi just likes playing centrally, that's just how it is. And it is not a sin

Sergi Roberto is much much better at linking up than all our CMs bar Iniesta.

Messi doesn't go centrally to look for someone to link up with, he goes there because it is what he likes, instincts or whatever.


Don't say Iniesta because he has hardly even played this season due to injuries

 

[FlaFCB]

You're saying. He goes centrally so that he can link with an out of form Rakitic, slow and predictable Gomes and Erratic Denis (turnover machine)?
These are the guys he pursues to link up with instead of Sergi Roberto who is the second best player so far this season bar a few bad games?
He could surely choose better


BTW Sergi Roberto receives the ball quite a lot.

While our midfield sees very little time on the ball

If Messi really liked to link up, he would be closer to Roberto so that he is able to link up.
Instead, Roberto gets the ball and has to pass it back to midfield/ defence because there is no winger to associate with , HENCE all the complaints from Serghei and others that Sergi is poor in attack

You know what I think
Messi just likes playing centrally, that's just how it is. And it is not a sin

Sergi Roberto is much much better at linking up than all our CMs bar Iniesta.

Messi doesn't go centrally to look for someone to link up with, he goes there because it is what he likes, instincts or whatever.


Don't say Iniesta because he has hardly even played this season due to injuries

No... he goes centrally to link with Iniesta, Neymar, Arda. Rakitic, Roberto and Denis play on the right side, if you never noticed. Messi doesn't link well with neither.

Messi likes to play. Period. When the right side was working, he would start at rw, sometimes cutting inside, and he had Alves to play with there, and a functional midfield. Now there is no one. Alves leaving messed up the right side of the team.

 

[gasgas]

No... he goes centrally to link with Iniesta, Neymar, Arda. Rakitic, Roberto and Denis play on the right side, if you never noticed. Messi doesn't link well with neither.

Messi likes to play. Period. When the right side was working, he would start at rw, sometimes cutting inside, and he had Alves to play with there, and a functional midfield. Now there is no one. Alves leaving messed up the right side of the team.

Iniesta has hardly played this season. He is one of the players who have played the least, so there is no use mentioning him as Messi started playing centrally long before Iniesta came back from injury

Who among those you mentioned are better than Roberto at linking up?

 

[FlaFCB]

Iniesta has hardly played this season. He is one of the players who have played the least, so there is no use mentioning him as Messi started playing centrally long before Iniesta came back from injury

Who among those you mentioned are better than Roberto at linking up?

You should read the full post before replying. Iniesta wasn't the one only I mentioned. Roberto does not link up well with Messi either, something I also already posted in the previous post.

 

[gasgas]

You should read the full post before replying. Iniesta wasn't the one only I mentioned. Roberto does not link up well with Messi either, something I also already posted in the previous post.

You also didn't read my post to the end

I started by saying you can't use Iniesta as a reference to why Messi goes central because he's been absent most of this season.

Then i asked you, among the players you mentioned (Iniesta out, remaining with Arda and Neymar) who are better at linking up than Sergi Roberto?

My opinion, Roberto is more associative, he always looks to pass and move, look for spaces while Neymar and Arda are more of ball-hogs, want a few touches before making a pass.

I read your post, you didn't read mine

 

[FlaFCB]

You also didn't read my post to the end

I started by saying you can't use Iniesta as a reference to why Messi goes central because he's been absent most of this season.

Then i asked you, among the players you mentioned (Iniesta out, remaining with Arda and Neymar) who are better at linking up than Sergi Roberto?

My opinion, Roberto is more associative, he always looks to pass and move, look for spaces while Neymar and Arda are more of ball-hogs, want a few touches before making a pass.

I read your post, you didn't read mine

Of course I can use Iniesta. Very dumb to say that I can't, really. He was absent, but he played 8 liga games, and Messi 13. 4 Ucl games for Iniesta, 5 for Messi. Messi was also out injured for and missed 5 games. And no, you didn't read it, as you asked me things I had already said. But I'll repeat myself: Roberto isn't good at linking up with Messi. Both Neymar and Arda are better than him at this. Also Alba and Busquets.

Messi is very inteligent and thinks fast. Not all players can keep up with that. Roberto is a midfielder, trying to find his feet at rb. He's not that good attacking.