João Cancelo

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gasgas

Senior Member
serghei said:
[MENTION=20484]gasgas[/MENTION], you have the cause and effect relation backwards. Not having Alves to combine with is the reason Messi doesn't stay as much on the right. With Alves on, he used to have a lot of action in the right, because Alves is a playmaker. He was able to find Messi with through balls even in the tightest spaces. Roberto doesn't even see those passing option which Alves saw, or if he does see them, he doesn't try them because he is a) not as confident in his abilities, or b) not as skilled to do complex passes. A lot of Alves passes were highly technical. Roberto passes are flat, normal passes. Alves used the exterior of the foot a lot of times, much like Marcelo does now, hence his abilty to play more complex passes.

Passing lanes are still there in midfield and on the right, for players like Xavi, and Alves to find them and use them. It's the players that are missing. And when Messi feels he doesn't get quality passes going his way, it's natural for a player of his stature to look for other ways to get involved. And that means going more in the center.
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Serghei you have the cause and effect relation all wrong.
Messi moved from the right to the center because the midfield has lost all control, it is non existent. Him being the most creative player in the world, he believes that he can exert his creative influence better there.
He used to have a lot of action in the right because he actually played there, because the midfield didn't need any help as Rakitic and Iniesta had it under control, and Messi only focused on combining with Neymar and Suarez.

Now the midfield is a mess, nobody from midfield can do anything with the ball and so Messi has to be the one to take the ball from Busquets and do something.
This explains why this drift towards the center tends to happen a lot more in big games, even when Alves was here, Messi would go to the center of the field to help the midfield.
Now that our midfield is dead he has made the center his permanent home

Now the highlighted part. I can challenge you for a week to look for such instances and you will find that they are non existent.
Most of the times when Roberto receives the ball, Messi is found moving towards where Suarez is, around the center.
Messi hardly ever makes himself available to receive a pass from Roberto, because he drifts centrally with 4 players infront of him. I was watching a few Roberto highlight videos and that was one of the striking things i saw.

Alves used the exterior of the foot, fine
Where was Messi when Alves was making such a pass?
Was it not on the left wing forward position making a run?

How can you expect Roberto to make the same pass when Messi has moved centrally to be amongst the 4 hungry defenders marking him?


Take a Roberto video from youtube and analyze the passing lanes he usually has to work with.
Very rarely you will find a passing lane to Messi unless in those few occassions where Messi has decided to visit the RW
Most of the times it is Rakitic or Busquets, or worse the CBs
 
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gasgas

Senior Member
Ahmedd said:
I don't know, probably not. I posted that because you said that Alves's departure has little to do with our current situation.Messi moved from the right side when Alves was still there, but it wasn't as dangerous as it is now, because "Alves". I understand what you are trying to say, we will never get a RB as good as Alves so the best solution is for Messi to go back to the right side.
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Please remind me when did that happen?
 
serghei

serghei

Senior Member
Messi had always drifted to the center from the right. Of course it also happened with Alves. But he was still a RW (when he didn't play false 9 or pure 9). He would still go back to that zone. His movements started from there. I didn't see articles like the one on Total Barca about Messi's lack of position when Alves was here. Against Madrid he wasn't a RW that drifted to the center, he was a pure midfielder. I never saw Messi being a midfielder in a Xavi position almost a full game when Alves was here. NEVER.

Roberto can't pass and play like Alves. He is inferior to Dani in every single way. Why do you think the staff wants to sign Cancelo? Just for fun? Messi isn't well used on the RW without a very good offensive RB. Roberto is not that player. He is not even a RB ffs. He is a good short term option in a position that is in dire need of a top signing.
 
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FlaFCB

Guest
"Losing Alves plays a small ppart " lmao. Not really worth to waste my time. Good thing I saw a quote of this.
 
te amo barca

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
gasgas, you don't even rate Alves. Last season you were hoping that Roberto takes over because Bob was performing better.
 
DonAK

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Alves was signed for a WR RB fee, which is perhaps still standing to this day? and seamlessly adapted to the team and started dominating the right flank by himself. His impact was great and probably bigger than perhaps many thought. So in that sense he was underrated.

There's a lot of times Roberto has a lot of space at that right flank right now, but he's not able to do much with it. He usually plays it safe or tries to send a cross in, often a low cross with various degree of success.

Alves would always try to either dribble, link-up with another player and then especially Messi or send a through ball between the lines to a player making a run. Or send a useless cross(2013-14 season :mou:). His crossing did however improve again after that horrendous season where he overhit it most of the time.

When you got a player like that, he obviously draws some attention from the opposition, which again leads to freeing up space in other parts of the field. Roberto has by no means done a bad job, but he's just not that type of a player that can draw 2-3 players out of position. So the midfield obviously still ends up being clogged and all that.

That's not to say Lucho's tactics aren't one of the reasons for our underwhelming play, because you got to adapt to the circumstances and to the players you have.
 
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gasgas

Senior Member
Deco 20 said:
The steroids got to his head :shakeshead:
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I don't use steroids


te amo barca said:
gasgas, you don't even rate Alves. Last season you were hoping that Roberto takes over because Bob was performing better.
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I rate Alves
Best RB i have ever seen
What are you talking about?

FlaFCB said:
"Losing Alves plays a small ppart " lmao. Not really worth to waste my time. Good thing I saw a quote of this.
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You saw that but unfortunately didn't care to read to which post I was replying to.

The guy was saying Rakitic is playing badly, on the right side because he has to help out Roberto.

And i said simply Alves departure plays a little part.


It is mostly because of Messi's departure


When Alves was here we had
RB= Alves
RCM= Rakitic
RW= Messi

Now

RB= Sergi
RM= Rakitic
RW= None

The RB, we lost Alves, but he was replaced with Roberto, who though you guys criticize a lot, he's your very own 2nd best player this season (MOTM thread) and he is in the UEFA breakthrough team of the year IIRC

The RCM is the same

But we lost a RW, not just any RW but Messi


Now who's the biggest loss there on the right side. It is Messi
 
G

gasgas

Senior Member
DonAK said:
Alves was signed for a WR RB fee, which is perhaps still standing to this day? and seamlessly adapted to the team and started dominating the right flank by himself. His impact was great and probably bigger than perhaps many thought. So in that sense he was underrated.
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Yeah best RB in the world by miles

[/QUOTE]There's a lot of times Roberto has a lot of space at that right flank right now, but he's not able to do much with it. He usually plays it safe or tries to send a cross in, often a low cross with various degree of success. [/QUOTE] Not true

[/QUOTE]Alves would always try to either dribble[/QUOTE] So does Roberto, what do you think comes before those low crosses? He makes a run and sends a cross
[/QUOTE]link-up with another player[/QUOTE] Impossible, wanna know why? [/QUOTE]and then especially Messi[/QUOTE] Because this guys is not free to receive the ball in most cases he is in the box marked with 4 players
[/QUOTE]or send a through ball between the lines to a player making a run[/QUOTE] There needs to be a run prior to a through ball, Roberto doesn't have that luxury [/QUOTE]Or send a useless cross(2013-14 season :mou:)[/QUOTE] Alves resorted to this whenever Messi drifted centrally because there was no one to link with, the center was crowded, no room for a throughball, nobody making a run
[/QUOTE]His crossing did however improve again after that horrendous season where he overhit it most of the time.[/QUOTE] The crosses were not always overhit, many ended in the box but were easily cleared because we lack a target man

[/QUOTE]When you got a player like that, he obviously draws some attention from the opposition, which again leads to freeing up space in other parts of the field[/QUOTE]
And when you have Messi there to linkup with, even better :p [/QUOTE]Roberto has by no means done a bad job, but he's just not that type of a player that can draw 2-3 players out of position[/QUOTE]
Which is easier?
Roberto, Rakitic and Messi on the right side of the field trying to draw 4 players out of position
OR Roberto and Rakitic alone trying to draw 4 players out of position. Which of the two scenarios do you expect to be successful

That's not to say Lucho's tactics aren't one of the reasons for our underwhelming play, because you got to adapt to the circumstances and to the players you have.[/QUOTE]
 
serghei

serghei

Senior Member
[MENTION=20484]gasgas[/MENTION], we had the same midfield in the first season of Lucho. Exactly the same. The players didn't just turn into shit overnight. The only factor that is different from 2014-15, outside of the poorer form of Neymar and Suarez, is the absence of Alves on the right.

I think it's about time everyone gets on the same page and admits that losing Alves has affected that right side of ours much more than everyone thought, including me who is, was and will always be a fan of his and his way of playing. Thinking back, we should have gave him a contract until 35 with ease.

Let's hope we can fix this, because Messi playing more as a midfielder than at any point in his career at Barca is worrying, and absolutely related to losing his best partner in all those years. The word "Alvessi" wasn't invented by fans for nothing. They had a special bond and totally understood the game the same way. Of course Messi is affected by that and his game on the right suffers more as a result.

Is Cancelo the answer? Don't know. But we need to do better than Sergi Roberto who is really starting to be overrated here. Good short term option? Sure. Alves' replacement? Not even close.
 
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FlaFCB

Guest
gasgas said:
Serghei you have the cause and effect relation all wrong.
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No, you have it wrong. Midfield is unbalanced because Alves left. His departure unbalanced the team. Messed up the RCM role, that was adapted to the loss of Xavi, and also affected Messi.
Messi never played a fixed position, he always drifts in games. But he now abandoned the rw completely, because that side of the team is a mess.
You overrate roberto quite a lot, guess that's why you can't see such an obvious thing. He's doing ok, but he can't replicate what Alves used to do. Without Xavi and Alves, that right side is the team's biggest weakness now.
 
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