João Cancelo

[gasgas]

Of course I can use Iniesta. Very dumb to say that I can't, really. He was absent, but he played 8 liga games, and Messi 13. 4 Ucl games for Iniesta, 5 for Messi. And no, you didn't read it, as you asked me things I had already said. But I'll repeat myself: Roberto isn't good at linking up with Messi. Both Neymar and Arda are better than him at this. Also Alba and Busquets.

Messi is very inteligent and thinks fast. Not all players can keep up with that. Roberto is a midfielder, trying to find his feet at rb. He's not that good attacking.

You know why Iniesta can't be used?
He got injured right at the start of the season?
And right after that, Messi started playing more centrally.
So you can't say Messi went centrally to link with Iniesta , while Iniesta left because of injury right before Messi went central.
There are better reasons and to find players to link up with is not one of them

Roberto is not good at linking with Messi?
How do we know that?

From the very first day, Messi moved away from the wing and went to play centrally, how do we know they don't link good if they never even played together there this season?

You say Messi links good with Neymar and Alba because Messi has gone centrally and now he links up with them.
But it is different with Roberto

If you have time, please care to look up for videos of Sergi Roberto last season playing as a midfielder and how he linked up with Messi


You also say Roberto is not good attacking, but he has so many assists the last time I checked even though he plays on the same side as an off form Rakitic and a non existent RW-Messi. I think he is quite good attacking.

Why do you think he is very high rated by the football analysts, or even 2nd MOTM in Barcaforum? is it because of his defensive contribution?
I hardly remember any strong defensive contribution from him, but I remember dazzling runs and dribbles, one-twos with Rakitic and tasty crosses from Roberto, which i believe is attacking

 

[FlaFCB]

Messi started playing centrally when he noticed there was no one to link up with. Not after Iniesta got injured. Bravo was still here when he started it. Just check his heat maps.

Also I did not say Messi links well with Alba and Neymar now because he moved centrally. It's the other way around. He moved centrally to find players to play with, don't twist my words.

Rakitic is not off form either, he's just playing in a very awkward position, having to defend the right side as a rb, most of the time. Roberto has a good cross, yes. That doesn't really make him great at attacking, or that he will manage to keep up with Messi. Comparing him to Alves, which is the point, he has almost no chemistry with Messi. And other players have it.

I don't base my opinion on bf's motm thread either. I don't think roberto is that good as a rb, unlike many here. And I think it's a bit like Bartra, people want a catalan canterano to make it.

 

[gasgas]

Bravo was still here when he started it. Just check his heat maps.

.

What?

I assume you meant Iniesta. May i ask, when did Iniesta get injured this season? wasn't it the first/second game of the season? How could have Iniesta been there when Messi started playing centrally?

I am not twisting your words. I added an explanation that makes sense to me. It makes sense to say Messi links up well with Alba, Busquets because he links up with them a lot, especially now that he plays even more centrally.
But with Roberto he doesn't even try to link up with him. There hasn't been a time this season where Messi has played RW a whole match and linked up with Roberto and failed so that we can say these two can't link up at all.
What you are saying suggests that, right before the season started Messi thought "Yikes, this is not Alves, this is a new guy at RB, can't link up with him run to the center". Because the Messi-Roberto link up has never even been attempted to have been called a failure.

Do you know how well Messi can link up with Cancelo or Juanfran? Nobody knows, it has never been tried for us to tell

Roberto has a good cross, a good dribble, he is pass and move and he likes one and two's. Look at his highlight videos and you will see how he tries those link ups with Rakitic. Plenty of times i really wish it was Messi doing those with him, and I have seen Messi do those things with Alves (one-two's, link ups, passes, flicks) but Messi is nowhere to be seen most of the time

Which RB can you compare to Alves?
Can Messi only play RW when Alves is there?
Roberto has plenty of things Messi could benefit from if he could link up with him. He's not Alves but he certainly can pass, one-two, dribble, cross, make off the ball movement. Take a look at his few season highlights and you will see them

The reason why Messi has moved centrally? i can explain but certainly not in this thread

 

[FlaFCB]

What?

I assume you meant Iniesta. May i ask, when did Iniesta get injured this season? wasn't it the first/second game of the season? How could have Iniesta been there when Messi started playing centrally?

I am not twisting your words. I added an explanation that makes sense to me. It makes sense to say Messi links up well with Alba, Busquets because he links up with them a lot, especially now that he plays even more centrally.

No, I meant Bravo. Messi was playing centrally since the supercopa. Iniesta got injured vs atletico, 7th game of the season. Your "added explanation" makes no sense, it's not what I said or meant. If Messi doesn't "try" to link up with Bob, he has his reasons. And with he being who he is, i'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing. I also really doubt you can explain why Messi moved centrally, when you didn't even notice how he misses having a player like Alves. Messi needs company, or he drifts in the field to find players to combine with. It's like that with argentina as well. I also never said he'd link up with cancelo or whoever.

 

[serghei]

I don't base my opinion on bf's motm thread either. I don't think roberto is that good as a rb, unlike many here. And I think it's a bit like Bartra, people want a catalan canterano to make it.

He really isn't. He has done a pretty good job consindering the circumstances, but his link-up play is reduced to a safety pass 90% of the time. Alves used to play a lot, really a lot of productive forward passes, almost like a real playmaker like Iniesta would produce.

I would go as far as to say Alves has been Messi's best short spaces combinations partner in his Barca career. They had spoken the same language unlike any RB-RW pair I've ever seen.

 

[FlaFCB]

He really isn't. He has done a pretty good job consindering the circumstances, but his link-up play is reduced to a safety pass 90% of the time. Alves used to play a lot, really a lot of productive forward passes, almost like a real playmaker like Iniesta would produce.

I would go as far as to say Alves has been Messi's best short spaces combinations partner in his Barca career. They had spoken the same language unlike any RB-RW pair I've ever seen.

He surely was. Alvessi was quite something.

It's a bit baffling that some think roberto can replicate that, really. Alves still underrated. Best Barça rb ever, and surely top 5 rbs of all time.

 

[serghei]

He surely was. Alvessi was quite something.

It's a bit baffling that some think roberto can replicate that, really. Alves still underrated. Best Barça rb ever, and surely top 5 rbs of all time.

Roberto is nowhere near, and neither is any other RB in the world. Problem is people don't understand IMO or never estimated just how important was Alves for Barcelona. For me, personally, he is in the same tier with Xavi and Iniesta and Messi. One of the best rightbacks ever without a doubt.

I mean he had the absolute whole package. Just in the game vs Espanyol when Iniesta played Suarez for 1-0 with a brilliant 50m pass, I remembered that Alves did the same vs Madrid (2-1) and Atletico (2-1) and also to Suarez. Straight up 50m assist and bam, goal. The same vision to do the pass, the same brilliant technique to not hit it too hard or too soft, the same spin on the ball. And it made me sad a bit, because we have lost that with Alves gone and will soon lose that as well with Iniesta possibly.

 

[gasgas]

No, I meant Bravo. Messi was playing centrally since the supercopa. Iniesta got injured vs atletico, 7th game of the season. Your "added explanation" makes no sense, it's not what I said or meant. If Messi doesn't "try" to link up with Bob, he has his reasons. And with he being who he is, i'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing. I also really doubt you can explain why Messi moved centrally, when you didn't even notice how he misses having a player like Alves. Messi needs company, or he drifts in the field to find players to combine with. It's like that with argentina as well. I also never said he'd link up with cancelo or whoever.

You are wrong I'm afraid.

Iniesta got injured in the first supercopa game vs Sevilla, and he went on to miss the 2nd leg, then more matches vs. Betis, Bilbao, Alaves,

then came back vs. Celtic and scored, then played vs Leganes

then he got injured vs Atletico.


So if Messi went central from day 1, it can't be to link up with Iniesta can it?

He misses Alves? who doesn't. Is that the reason for shunning Roberto? is it Alves or bust?

There are plenty of players to combine with on the right side, most of them are better than those on the left?
Sergi Roberto had a good half season so far, Rakitic combines very well with Messi
compare that to
Neymar who has been the cause of many cursings this season due to his ball hogging, losing the ball, and useless tricks. Not the best candidate for linking up IMO. Alba has been injured a lot this season, so Digne played a bit more. Digne the new guy
In Iniesta's place, Denis and Gomes played a few games, both new and unconvincing
Busquets has been having a horror of a season until a few games back

And, I am sure you have watched a lot of Barca matches. Which side of the field is most crowded by the opponents, is it the center or the flanks?

The flanks are where there is room for link up. I would understand the link up, point if Messi moved to left flank for example, the LW recives the ball a lot and can link up with the LB, instead of playing at the center where it is crowded


The reason why Messi moved centrally IMO
is
1. to exert midfield control, Iniesta left due to injury quite early and his replacements are atrocious at best. Messi as a captain decided to shoulder the responsibility to go central and try to control the proceedings. Not to link up, the players there are trash. And we really don't even link up that much in midfield whatsoever. Most of the time the midfield is by-passed, and the ball is taken straight to MSN,
Messi went to midfield to fill the gap left by Iniesta who i repeat, has been injured most of the season. In the center of the field, Messi tries to CREATE, not link up,
Create chances through a dribble, or a pass. If you noticed, he hardly does give and take passes in the center. He goes to that zone because it is trash and needs someone to dictate the game

Unfortunately this has caused a monumental gap in the RW position

2. It's part of his instincts. Creative players love playing in the center of the field as compared to the wings.
while athletic players like the wings where they can use their pace and produce crosses
Compare the winger styles of
Messi vs Valencia
Neymar vs Douglas Costa
He loves playing centrally


The same thing in Argentina. There are no special players in the center to link up with that he must leave the wing to follow
I think linking up with Zabaleta is quite more fulfilling thanlinking up with say Biglia

The answer is the same. Argentina lack creative outlets, Creative outlets prefer playing centrally,
See also Neymar for Brazil. He has Marcelo to combine with but we see him moving more towards the center because that's where he can exert his influence

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=20484]gasgas[/MENTION] Rakitic and Roberto have little creativity and struggle big time under pressure. Rakitic was extremely useful when we had Alves, because Alves was a playmaker for us and Rakitic with the engine and tactical discipline that he has was extremely good at covering Alves' frequent runs in attack. Once we lost Alves, and now Rakitic has to bring more creatively, he is struggling, which is not hard to see, and the reason he is struggling more now, is because his role has changed due to the fact that Alves is not here.

Almost everything that is wrong on the right is down to losing Alves which was basically our playmaker in the right wing, and Messi's partner. Rakitic and Roberto don't even share 10% of the connection Messi had with Dani. It is our no1 task to find a creative RB for Messi to connect well to, because this midfielder version of Messi might look amazing with Espanyol and Granada, but against Real he was more or less invisible. Messi's place imo is in the right, finding combinations with the RB, drifting inside often and making space for the fullback to go up and use that space wisely. Teams are giving us tons of space on the right because they know Roberto is not the player to appear in that space and create real danger.

Our right wing atm is basically a place where nothing happens. You pass to the right side only to receive the ball back.

 

[gasgas]

He really isn't. He has done a pretty good job consindering the circumstances, but his link-up play is reduced to a safety pass 90% of the time. Alves used to play a lot, really a lot of productive forward passes, almost like a real playmaker like Iniesta would produce.

I would go as far as to say Alves has been Messi's best short spaces combinations partner in his Barca career. They had spoken the same language unlike any RB-RW pair I've ever seen.

There is a reason for this, there is no winger in front of him to link with, a block of opponent team players infront of him and Rakitic behind him. What to do?

Ironically Alves has had similar moments in Tata and Tito season when there was no winger to combine with him,
He could either pass backwards or cross the ball to an imaginary Crouch.

Well Alves would choose the latter much to the annoyance of Barca fans

[MENTION=21618]FlaFCB[/MENTION] something interesting came up.
You remember these games from last season?
Barcelona Vs Atletico, first and second leg of UCL
Barcelona Vs Real Madrid La Liga second game

Why did Messi move centrally in those games, with Alves on the right

Was there no one to link up to, or was it because the team was getting overrun in midfield and Messi felt he should go there and help,being the most creative player. How well was the link up in those games when Messi moved centrally?

 

[gasgas]

[MENTION=20484]gasgas[/MENTION] Rakitic and Roberto have little creativity and struggle big time under pressure. Rakitic was extremely useful when we had Alves, because Alves was a playmaker for us and Rakitic with the engine and tactical discipline that he has was extremely good at covering Alves' frequent runs in attack. Once we lost Alves, and now Rakitic has to bring more creatively, he is struggling, which is not hard to see, and the reason he is struggling more now, is because his role has changed due to the fact that Alves is not here. Almost everything that is wrong on the right is down to losing Alves which was basically our playmaker in the right wing, and Messi's partner. Rakitic and Roberto don't even share 10% of the connection Messi had with Dani. It is our no1 task to find a creative RB for Messi to connect well to, because this midfielder version of Messi might look amazing with Espanyol and Granada, but against Real he was more or less invisible.

Losing Alves plays a very small part.
Everything that is wrong with the right side is down to losing Messi from the right to the center, hence Roberto has to go forward with no winger to support him and Rakitic has to defend more since now with the loss of Messi, the right wing is obsolete in attack and hence more vulnerable being attacked

How can Messi and Roberto connect while Messi moved to the center from day 1??? How?
Messi vacated the Right wing from the first match of the season. How can you expect them to connect
your explanation would only hold, if Messi and Roberto had played together a few games on the right side and failed to connect, then Messi moved centrally.

We don't need Cancelo because with centralized Messi, Cancelo will be faced with the same option, pass the ball back to safety or make Alves esque crosses to imaginary Crouch.

We need to solve the problem that has caused Messi to move centrally which IMO is lack of a midfield.
Because if that problem stays, Messi will move there to help out and try to do something causing us the same problem, only now with Cancelo who is shambles defensively

 

[Ahmedd]

Losing Alves plays a very small part.

I can't let you say that

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/smN1SuRBRGc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[gasgas]

I can't let you say that

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/smN1SuRBRGc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

With the thread title in mind, can Cancelodo any of those?

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=20484]gasgas[/MENTION], you have the cause and effect relation backwards. Not having Alves to combine with is the reason Messi doesn't stay as much on the right. With Alves on, he used to have a lot of action in the right, because Alves is a playmaker. He was able to find Messi with through balls even in the tightest spaces. Take your pick, there are literally hours of videos online with Alves playing Messi on at exactly the right time and the right moment. Only Alves did that. Montoya didn't even have the game IQ to see those passes. Roberto doesn't have it either, although he is clearly better than Montoya.

The point is Roberto doesn't even see those passing options which Alves saw, or if he does see them, he doesn't try them because he is a) not as confident in his abilities, or b) not as skilled to actually pull them off. A lot of Alves' passes were highly technical and done in the perfect time. Passing "windows" open at times, but only the highly creative players can pass the ball exactly, and I mean exactly, when a passing option presents itself, and not earlier or later.

Players like Xavi and Alves were naturals at releasing the ball at the best time in order to use those passing options to advance the game in an intelligent, non-predictable way. Other players don't see those options. Passing forward when there are 10 men from the opposing team in front of you is an art in itself. Look closely at Roberto the next important game he plays. Watch how many times does he play a through ball, and how many times he does a safety pass. It's 90% of the time safety pass, and only in extreme cases does he try a riskier pass. Alves played those riskier passes all the time, because he had the talent to do them. Sure, he sometimes lost the ball and we conceded a goal or two, and people jumped and said Montoya was better or this or that. But in the bigger picture Messi and Barcelona benefited a lot from having a player willing to pass the ball in the areas that most are too scared to.

Passing lanes are still there in midfield and on the right, for players like Xavi, and Alves to find them and use them. It's the players that are missing. And when Messi feels he doesn't get quality passes going his way, it's natural for a player of his stature to look for other ways to get involved. And that means going more in the center.

 

[Ahmedd]

With the thread title in mind, can Cancelodo any of those?

I don't know, probably not. I posted that because you said that Alves's departure has little to do with our current situation.Messi moved from the right side when Alves was still there, but it wasn't as dangerous as it is now, because "Alves". I understand what you are trying to say, we will never get a RB as good as Alves so the best solution is for Messi to go back to the right side.