La Liga 2020/21

[El Gato]

You’re writing knee jerk stuff. Mendy is an excellent player with very few wingers matching his athleticism. Reguilon is nowhere near that.

And yes about Hakimi.

 

[Slevinn]

Gaya has improved, a stand-out player in this Valencia side. Good candidate to replace Alba with.

We should at least try since they seem to sell everything that walks way below the price.

 

[Birdy]

Zidane is a recipe for disaster for a team that needs re-building.
It's something in the psychological complexion of the guy, but he just does not trust any non established player, be it 10 or 20 times better than the established in the respective position.
What he did with Hakimi, Reguillon, Kovasic, Ceballos, Jovic, ... (keep adding names to the list) is telling.
One Valverde and one mendy say little when his team is stuck with semi-retired starters who are 5-6 years away from their prime.
Time is up, the clock is ticking.

I have had already this discussion with Wolfe.
He disagrees, but he will have enough of ZZ on this front soon...

 

[El Gato]

On what front?

Zidane can’t be squarely blamed for shipping people off. He gave Hakimi his debut, even kept him as Carvajals back up for a season. What he can be blamed for is not adequately rotating (playing Marcelo without a DM) and not developing offensive system in 1.5 years since being back.

Selling players who seem young and good is a combination of club needing money where they can’t sell James, Bale etc as no one can afford their wages and give time to those who want to play but have a strong competitor in Madrid I.e Llorente.

 

[Birdy]

On what front?

Zidane can’t be squarely blamed for shipping people off. He gave Hakimi his debut, even kept him as Carvajals back up for a season. What he can be blamed for is not adequately rotating (playing Marcelo without a DM) and not developing offensive system in 1.5 years since being back.

Selling players who seem young and good is a combination of club needing money where they can’t sell James, Bale etc as no one can afford their wages and give time to those who want to play but have a strong competitor in Madrid I.e Llorente.

On the front of rebuilding.

I don't buy the last part.
Selling those youngster was not an economic imperative first and foremost.
If Zidane had said to Perez 'I want Hakimi, Reguillon' none of them would have gone anywhere.

 

[El Gato]

Nonsense. Hakimi wants to play while Carvajal hasn’t done enough to be sent to the bench. Anyone who watched RM would see that. There’s also Odriozola who can’t really be sold in the middle of the quarantine and he’d need to be in order to make room for Carva-Hakimi pairing. Also Zidane knows his quality since like I mentioned he gave him a full season.
Reguilon Zidane hasn’t used and needs to weigh the option of keeping 3 LBs with one playing next to nothing, or selling one of them. And here it can be argued wrong choice was made, but Marcelo will also be gone within 2 years so it made every bit of sense to do. On the assumption that Marcelo has even 20% left in the tank. Which we’re finding out he doesn’t.

And it was financial. It’s COVID. And big spending coming up next window. While couldn’t make money on other players too.

 

[Morten]

Nonsense. Hakimi wants to play while Carvajal hasn?t done enough to be sent to the bench. Anyone who watched RM would see that. There?s also Odriozola who can?t really be sold in the middle of the quarantine and he?d need to be in order to make room for Carva-Hakimi pairing. Also Zidane knows his quality since like I mentioned he gave him a full season.
Reguilon Zidane hasn?t used and needs to weigh the option of keeping 3 LBs with one playing next to nothing, or selling one of them. And here it can be argued wrong choice was made, but Marcelo will also be gone within 2 years so it made every bit of sense to do. On the assumption that Marcelo has even 20% left in the tank. Which we?re finding out he doesn?t.

And it was financial. It?s COVID. And big spending coming up next window. While couldn?t make money on other players too.

Oh please, this has to be his last season, surely? Cause im not sure what Zidanes interpretation of "20% left in the tank" actually is.

 

[El Gato]

I would hope, but probably only if he agrees to go and forfeit the final year of his wage. Otherwise he’ll stay till 2022 and up to the club whether they use him as #2 or if they bring Reguilon back a year early and relegate Marcelo to stands. History of Madrid squad management says ‘you either earn and play or you leave’.

 

[Birdy]

Nonsense. Hakimi wants to play while Carvajal hasn’t done enough to be sent to the bench. Anyone who watched RM would see that. There’s also Odriozola who can’t really be sold in the middle of the quarantine and he’d need to be in order to make room for Carva-Hakimi pairing. Also Zidane knows his quality since like I mentioned he gave him a full season.
Reguilon Zidane hasn’t used and needs to weigh the option of keeping 3 LBs with one playing next to nothing, or selling one of them. And here it can be argued wrong choice was made, but Marcelo will also be gone within 2 years so it made every bit of sense to do. On the assumption that Marcelo has even 20% left in the tank. Which we’re finding out he doesn’t.

And it was financial. It’s COVID. And big spending coming up next window. While couldn’t make money on other players too.

When did he give him a full season? Before loan at Dortmund? When he was how much, 17? Seriously?
Hakimi showed enormous potential last year at Dortmund, for everyone who sees a little bit of football.
If you check market prices summer of 2020 for all right backs in the world: Behind TAA you will find Hakimi as the second most expensive estimated.
And Zidane does what? Lets him be sold to Inter.
Please, spare me excuses...

 

[El Gato]

Did you read the part about relegating Carvajal to the bench being the prerequisite for Hakimi staying? Or just glossed over it like the simple lad you seem to be?

Transfermarkt value

 

[Birdy]

Did you read the part about relegating Carvajal to the bench being the prerequisite for Hakimi staying? Or just glossed over it like the simple lad you seem to be?

Transfermarkt value

Who set the prerequisite?
He could rotate equally depending on game/ circumstances.
Being in contention every time is different from being a guaranteed sub all the time.

Transfermarkt is a a good indicator.
Show me a better one.
Or tell me a RB that is valued more atm behind Trent

 

[El Gato]

Rotating equally is nonsense for a player who has just played two full seasons and actively wants more time. If he wanted to stay and compete irrespective of having to prove he’s better than Carvajal from #2, he would have stayed. He left because he wanted more certainty in a team that plays a wingback which Real do not.

And we’d need to sell Odriozola. For whom there is no buyer to sell at a small loss during COVID.

Transfermarkt is so good that they had Maguire valued higher than De Ligt for a long while and Messi still at 130. Relative numbers that mean sod all.

 

[Birdy]

Playing at wing-back has nothing to do with player's intentions. He never said 'no because I wanna play as wing-back', spare me the new reasons you devise on the spot.

Again: Zidane saying 'you are out of my plans' is different from 'you are in my plans'. Being in contention means being in contention, not #2 stick permanently on his forehead.
As for playing time, I don't buy that.
If he was in Z's plans, he would never raise such 'guaranteed X amount of time' concerns.

All in all: don't try to justify Zidane and mask his flaws. Hakimi is a paradigmatic example, but there are tons more, like Regui, Kovasic, Ceballos etc etc
I am sure you are capable of thinking out excuses for each one, but NO, it won't do.
There is a lawful trend in Zidane's flaws

As for transfermarkt, yes there are some off valuations, but for the most part they do fine. I said 'best indicator from the ones that exist', unless you have an alternative to suggest.

 

[El Gato]

Market value means nothing in the current conversation. We're not talking about the fees paid or received.

Pure confirmation bias on display instead of assessment on case by case basis (something you actively discourage proving youre not even ready to do due diligence). We don't need to continue with this indeed.
Carvajal is a better defender than Hakimi. Played better defensively all 19/20 and would play bulk of minutes. Hakimi wouldn't be satisfied with that because he wants to play and knows he needs to play to improve. No guarantee of time investment to iron out flaws in Madrid and would have to share pitch time for at least 2 seasons. Far better to sell or loan again and go back for him in time when he gets rid of the flaws.
Also glossing over Odriozola sale. No surprise here.

Come back when you have a better case instead of a bagful of generalities fitting into your idea of Zidane all around bad squad management choices.

 

[Birdy]

Pure confirmation bias on display instead of assessment on case by case basis (something you actively discourage proving youre not even ready to do due diligence). We don't need to continue with this indeed.
Carvajal is a better defender than Hakimi. Played better defensively all 19/20 and would play bulk of minutes. Hakimi wouldn't be satisfied with that because he wants to play and knows he needs to play to improve. No guarantee of time investment to iron out flaws in Madrid and would have to share pitch time for at least 2 seasons. Far better to sell or loan again and go back for him in time when he gets rid of the flaws.
Also glossing over Odriozola sale. No surprise here.

I didn't say one should not do case by case examination.
I said you can come up with inadequate excuses for each one like the ones you are presenting for Hakimi.
I used Hakimi as a paradigmatic example of a lawful trend, which exists and you refuse to concede it.

Then,
1) You are not really answering my point.
You present it again as Hakimi wants to play all the minutes as Madrid's starting RB. I say this is not true.
Being in contention would have been enough to convince him to stay, but he was 'out of Zidane's plans' as his agent confirmed.
How many times are you going to gloss this over by presenting imaginary psychological motives behind Hakimi??

2) I will give you that Carvahal was better defensively in 19/20, but not by a large margin.
On the contrary Hakimi is already better offensively that Carvahal based on 19/20 and he is 9 years younger.
So, Zidane's inability to incorporate non-established players is harming the long-term future of your club.
Good for us. Keep believing he is the man for the job, and after some years you will start counting how many years of rebuilding you will have had wasted with him (we already wasted 3 with Valverde)

What you say about going for him in the future after selling is nonsense. Financially suicidal.

3) Why should i justify anything about Odriozola??
We are talking about Zidane not counting on Hakimi.
That happened before any transfer decision was taken.
Don't try to present it as purely financial issue, which is not.