La Liga 2020/21

[El Gato]

I didn't say one should not do case by case examination.

Yep, heavily implied any analysis of other players sold/loaned around Zidane tenure should be treated as 'excuses' while never addressing what the arguments are, nor did you provide any analysis of your own, only the final statement pointing out youve simply inserted them into your argument as Zidane flaws without even doing due diligence.

All of the players you happened to mention have a reason why they left the club. In all but Marcelo-Reguilon case it makes sense.

I used Hakimi as a paradigmatic example of a lawful trend

Now using big words to make yourself sound smarter lol.

You present it again as Hakimi wants to play all the minutes as Madrid's starting RB. I say this is not true.

Cant claim it's not true when the only evidence we have is him leaving to a team without an established starter.

but he was 'out of Zidane's plans' as his agent confirmed.

Here you're flat out lying, he said nothing of the sort. He said he left due to Zidane decision who has an established starter in Carvajal that is a better defender than Hakimi.

I will give you that Carvahal was better defensively in 19/20, but not by a large margin.

By a huge margin. Was part of 2nd best defense in Europe this season and Achraf proved he has a lot of work just this past week where Mendy folded him and he gave an assist to Benzema through an irresponsible play.

On the contrary Hakimi is already better offensively that Carvahal based on 19/20 and he is 9 years younger.

In every metric other than goals Carvajal has the same offensive stats as Hakimi in each of the past two seasons. And that's despite playing in the worst offensive Real Madrid side in 30 years while Hakimi played in a bad league and for a run and gun offensive side who have Haaland, and who also conceded a lot.

xA (expected assists) in 18/19 and 19/20
Carvajal 3.37 and 5.44, Achraf 2.96 and 5.51
no difference between xA90

KP90 (key passes per 90)
Carvajal 1.27 and 1.39, Achraf 0.57 and 1.20

Source - understat.com

Conclusion? No, he's not better in most aspects other than goalscoring, just benefits more from a better attacking side and more organisation. In fact Carvajal is criminally underappreciated as shown by how much better and more stable RM look with him.
ATM Hakimi is a guy with an excellent motor, energy and bravery but is also unbalanced and threatening to become an inverted winger in the mold of Bale more than a defender.

Keep believing he is the man for the job, and after some years you will start counting how many years of rebuilding you will have had wasted with him (we already wasted 3 with Valverde)

Didn't argue he is.

What you say about going for him in the future after selling is nonsense. Financially suicidal.

Standard buyback type investment which has been done for decades, last time with Morata. As Achraf contract winds down we should be able to go back for him and get him below 80 meaning we'll pay 40 for a made player and it's not even certain he will be as he has a lot to prove defensively.

Why should i justify anything about Odriozola??
We are talking about Zidane not counting on Hakimi.

Nope we're talking about shaping a squad considering you need to concern yourself with the wage ladder and what you're going to do with other players. There was no buyer for the #2 player and Hakimi wanted to play more minutes than he knew he would have gotten provided Carvajal is as good offensively and better defensively than him.

That's just two of the factors that meant him staying unfeasible. Plus Hakimi would need a new big contract as his old one was expiring in 2022.

Don't try to present it as purely financial issue, which is not.

I didn't. Been trying to show you the amount of variables you're ignoring all along. Read again.

 

[Barcilliant]

I will be happy if some team like Sociedad or Sevilla win la liga this season.
It's kind of funny how far both Bar?a and Madrid have fallen.
Real have no excuses. Bought up alot of young talent in the market and haven't used it properly. I'm not sure Zidane is the right man for a rebuild. To me Pochettino would have been the right choice. I think Poch will be monitiring both Utd and Real very closely.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

As much as I hate Real, these penalties for hands are getting old and boring. The go-to tactic should be to aim defensemen arms.

 

[Birdy]

Yep, heavily implied any analysis of other players sold/loaned around Zidane tenure should be treated as 'excuses' while never addressing what the arguments are, nor did you provide any analysis of your own, only the final statement pointing out youve simply inserted them into your argument as Zidane flaws without even doing due diligence.

All of the players you happened to mention have a reason why they left the club. In all but Marcelo-Reguilon case it makes sense.



Now using big words to make yourself sound smarter lol.




Cant claim it's not true when the only evidence we have is him leaving to a team without an established starter.



Here you're flat out lying, he said nothing of the sort. He said he left due to Zidane decision who has an established starter in Carvajal that is a better defender than Hakimi.



By a huge margin. Was part of 2nd best defense in Europe this season and Achraf proved he has a lot of work just this past week where Mendy folded him and he gave an assist to Benzema through an irresponsible play.



In every metric other than goals Carvajal has the same offensive stats as Hakimi in each of the past two seasons. And that's despite playing in the worst offensive Real Madrid side in 30 years while Hakimi plays in a bad league and for a run and gun offensive side.



Didn't argue he is.



Standard buyback type investment which has been done for decades, last time with Morata. As Achraf contract winds down we should be able to go back for him and get him below 80 meaning we'll pay 40 for a made player and it's not even certain he will be as he has a lot to prove defensively.



Nope we're talking about shaping a squad considering you need to concern yourself with the wage ladder and what you're going to do with other players. There was no buyer for the #2 player and Hakimi wanted to play more minutes than he knew he would have gotten provided Carvajal is as good offensively and better defensively than him.

That's just two of the factors that meant him staying unfeasible. Plus Hakimi would need a new big contract as his old one was expiring in 2022.



I didn't. Been trying to show you the amount of variables you're ignoring all along. Read again.

Man, you are tiring ...
You refuse to concede points even when you have been countered already, while devising on the spot stuff when you are out of arguments.

For now, I will just say briefly:

1) Show me the stats that prove Carvahal is on par offensively.
2) The number of 'other variables I am ignoring' belong to decisions at board level, not to Zidane's tactical/squad decisions.
Trying to widen the scope of the issue is a cheap tactic of yours to draw attention not where the issue lies.
I started this discussion about the topic 'Zidane' and rebuilding.
3) Thinking you can buy Hakimi for 40m in the future, when you sold him for 40 m now is a wet fantasy. I am not gonna bother answering that.

4) I don't see how I 'am lying', when Al Mountakhab, his agent said verbatim : “Zidane is the reason for Hakimi’s transfer to Inter Milan. He must explain why Hakimi moved.”
According to your line of defense, Zidane did not say 'you are out of my plans', but
something like 'you want to play all the minutes and I will make you share minutes with Carvahal'
or something like 'I have to sell Odriozola and no one buys him'
Nah, you don't even believe that yourself

 

[El Gato]

Ad1 - I edited the post with stats. Offensive balance is clear between the two

xA (expected assists) in 18/19 and 19/20
Carvajal 3.37 and 5.44, Achraf 2.96 and 5.51
no difference between xA90

KP90 (key passes per 90)
Carvajal 1.27 and 1.39, Achraf 0.57 and 1.20

Source - understat.com

Conclusion? No, he's not better in most aspects other than goalscoring, just benefits more from a better attacking side and more organisation. In fact Carvajal is criminally underappreciated as shown by how much better and more stable RM look with him.
ATM Hakimi is a guy with an excellent motor, energy and bravery but is also unbalanced and threatening to become an inverted winger in the mold of Bale more than a defender.

Edit: another little qualitative stat is that at Borussia almost all of their starters involved in attack (everyone but CBs) outperform their xA (or in other words get more assists from more tricky actions and movements and forwards scoring in more difficult conditions), Sancho nearly doubled his.
At Real the only ones in 2 seasons to manage this are CKMF & Marcelo.

Go figure assessing how good Hakimi was for them

Ad2 - I'm not widening anything. You're the one pointing to Zidane as the sole reason for him leaving which is drivel
Ad3 - I didn't say buy for 40, I said net operation loss which means the difference between what we sell him for to Inter and what we get him back for, is likely to be 40-60. And that's far from a fantasy. Hakimi wanted a clause included to not close the door to Madrid and he'll be 26 when his contract is up down there. Can easily force negotiations if he wants to return and help hike price down.
Ad4 - yeah, verbatim he said Zidane is the reason, hence you lied about the 'out of his plans'. The former can mean anything from 'I don't like the guy' to 'i love him but there's 2 other dudes'. Simple. Makes every bit of sense to assume he pointed out Carvajal presence being a problem as he's a very very good RB who'd curb Achrafs progress and continuity for at least 2 seasons.

The fact that nobody wanted to buy Odriozola is just common sense. It's Covid, player barely had football in 19/20 and would need to be moved on permanently just to make room on the bench which is not even what Hakimi wants.

Can come back to this some other day but don't really see reason why. Your black and white approach to Zidane being this terrible coordinator when he has sodall say in most cases other than occasionally giving a nod to a player is tiresome.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Wow Wow Wow I cant believe it. 4 GOALS Valencia, we will win the title amigos

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I will be happy if some team like Sociedad or Sevilla win la liga this season.
It's kind of funny how far both Bar?a and Madrid have fallen.
Real have no excuses. Bought up alot of young talent in the market and haven't used it properly. I'm not sure Zidane is the right man for a rebuild. To me Pochettino would have been the right choice. I think Poch will be monitiring both Utd and Real very closely.

Real has a good team but a bad coach.

 

[serghei]

As much as I hate Real, these penalties for hands are getting old and boring. The go-to tactic should be to aim defensemen arms.

Valencia's two were stone-wallers.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Benzema is 50% for the goals of Real madrid, they need an another goal scorer. Why is Asensio starting and starting ? This man is trash since his injury. Funny how bad they become in the defence when Ramos or Casemiro is missing.

 

[George_Costanza]

And we lost to this trashy Madrid side? lol

Both Real and Barca are leagues behind Bayern.

 

[Vilarrubi]

And we lost to this trashy Madrid side? lol

Both Real and Barca are leagues behind Bayern.

Liverpool and even City too. Passing and attacking was so sharp and fluid from them yesterday, ours and Madrid’s play looks slow and laboured.

 

[El Gato]

Why is Asensio starting and starting ?

Because Zidane believes 4-3-3 is the best setup considering the personnel we have available (4 wingers, 2 mediapuntas, 3 strikers, 3 CMs). And the only way to make players comfortable with one another and confident in front of goal is to give them pitch time.

Except it's clearly not working, because Benzema is useless as a lone outlet hiding behind his markers and constantly veering off down and to the side + unable to make up ground to get in the box for a cross, and from the very little we used it, it's clear we're better off up top in a diamond.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

And we lost to this trashy Madrid side? lol

Both Real and Barca are leagues behind Bayern.

True. I can't believe we lost to Real Madrid. We are shit but somehow I feel they are worse than us. (Which might not be reality). Our defense is in shambles and midfield. And no striker.

 

[CatalinR10]

sooooooooooo 5 points ahead for RM but they have 1 more game than us , no ?



If things go as they should , we should be only 2 points behind soon enough.



Hopefully we win vs Atletico on their field



HOPE.

 

[Vilarrubi]

sooooooooooo 5 points ahead for RM but they have 1 more game than us , no ?



If things go as they should , we should be only 2 points behind soon enough.



Hopefully we win vs Atletico on their field



HOPE.

They got a really tough schedule too.

Let’s hope we beat Atletico.