Lionel Messi - v7

[serghei]

Maybe setien advised him to man mark davies all along, we dont know, but that tunnel vision you said was true, and bayern players have taken what was given.
All in all, lets hope koemann finds everyone place where they fit, improve stammina and we'll see what would we get from this season.

Don't think he was instructed to man-mark anyone. I think he was given some directions when to keep position and when to press the player in his zone. Usually, if a player goes inside he is tracked because in this way he opens up his vision and can create a lot of danger (especially players of this level, we're not talking about Eibar players here). If he goes wide or backward, don't track him, since he is not threatening. Here he should have pressed him as he did, but he could have gone with him for a bit of a shorter distance. Don't think it would've made much difference, since the pass to Perisic is still on, but still.

 

[serghei]

Under Valverde and his low block of 4-4-2 there was a clear formation, and players would not lose their positioning because they were not instructed to press, like they unsuccessfully tried to against Bayern.
Still, the outcome was Rome and Anfield. So the problem was not incorrect positioning (at least the main problem).
Good and mediocre sides alike pinning us back into the box and bombarding, and the whole team looking helpless.
So your argument is weakened in light of the recent past.

It's a question if in modern football there is any chance if a team plays that kind of deep block defense (see Atletico recently being so inadequate), but even if we assume it is still possible you need all 10 outfield players to contribute and not just the 8 of them

Exactly, when you play only reactive and don't try to block the opponent from accessing some strategical positions, you're always playing catch-up. It's like I try to follow someone's gestures after he makes them. I will always be slower because I don't know what he is going to do. The only way I know how a team will play is to cut off how they want to and make them play my game.

 

[xxxxxx]

Can't attract bids if Messi believes he's free to sign with anyone he wants. Also, no club would pay a significant fee for Messi and give him his high wages.

And no, Bartomeu is not trying to upset Messi. He'll ask a whole team to take pay cut not just Messi but of course as a club captain Messi is one of the players who he'll want to talk with.

Bartomeu has made it clear he won't sell Messi under no circumstances. He's not even trying to attract bids. The notion of him leaving for free has gone out of the window..... doesn't mean we shouldn't at least get a fee for him and get his salary off the books. Besides, Bartomeu may be forced to sell Messi in any case. We're in terrible debt, and COVID has put us in more debt. We have an old squad of big salaries. We have no money to rebuild. And selling Messi is a realistic way of clearing up some of the debt.

Do you think Messi will be happy about him asking to reduce his salary? Especially after he's basically being forced to stay and when he's clearly unhappy at the club. It's playing with fire. It could lead to Messi not giving a shit on the pitch.

 

[raskolnikov]

He could have lut it out there, 100 mil you get Messi or we go to court of he wants to go on a free.

But he didnt. He only capreps apbout himself and therefore apllies short term vision only.
What happens after that isnt his problem.

 

[Rory]

The other players didn't give up. It's just that it is impossible to defend in 8 players with 2 players that walk around and watch the game blocking no one. It's been done before what you say. This is not the first game where we are humiliated in CL.

What you say is just another variety of shit defense, like it's been proven before. Whether you press or keep positions and defend deep, the first line of defense is the forward line. For us, that is almost non existent.

Watch Atletico keeping positions on Anfield and doing little to no press. Watch the defensive work by their forwards. Atletico ran 151 km in 120 mins. Nearly 116 km in 90 mins. Outran Liverpool by nearly 5kms.

They give up as in they give up any notion of tactical intelligence. This can also be attributed to the manager.

The Liverpool game we were humiliated mostly due to defensive errors and imo Valverde choosing to play three midfielders who are awful at press-resistance. Add to the fact Suarez and coutinho missed relatively simple chances set up by.... you guessed it Messi.

Which brings me onto another point, Messi is partly to blame for the loss to Bayern I just don't see him being a key factor like you do. A far bigger factor is that we are simply not good enough. We had a manager in setien who has achieved nothing. We have players playing for us on longterm contracts that wouldn't get in to most elite starting xi's, they're more at the level of Real Sociedad. I appreciate you analysing games because it's interesting reading other perspectives but I feel in your analysis you are overlooking the simple truth: Our manager and starting xi were not good enough.

 

[Rory]

Here is more in depth analysis of that moment when Thiago starts to dominate the play.

Our 4-4-2 position can be seen clearly, and is pretty decent and compact, except for one player. Who is the player in that image that is not where he needs to be in order to defend this action well? The one that doesn't contribute at all. At this point, everyone is where he should be (or at least somewhat acceptable) except Messi. Even Suarez is keeping the shape compact. But not Messi, Messi is out, allowing Thiago to make the play happen.

Also, further developing on Semedo's position. In my opinion, he does not make a mistake here, because we can see Pique keeping Perisic in check. Semedo presses Alphonso into a safety pass, and at the same time blocks the direct pass to Perisic with his cover shadow. If Messi does his job here, in this moment, we are well placed. The pass to Perisic is neutralized both by Semedo through blocking the path, and by Pique by direct marking.

Pique shouldn't be out that wide leaving an easy pass to the player marked by Lenglet. It allows an easy pass to that player and then a lay-off to the player behind busquets (who busquets should be marking better). In fact busquets standing so close to Frenkie is creating an overload on the right hand side with a couple of simple passes.

 

[Messi983]

Bartomeu has made it clear he won't sell Messi under no circumstances. He's not even trying to attract bids. The notion of him leaving for free has gone out of the window..... doesn't mean we shouldn't at least get a fee for him and get his salary off the books. Besides, Bartomeu may be forced to sell Messi in any case. We're in terrible debt, and COVID has put us in more debt. We have an old squad of big salaries. We have no money to rebuild. And selling Messi is a realistic way of clearing up some of the debt.

Do you think Messi will be happy about him asking to reduce his salary? Especially after he's basically being forced to stay and when he's clearly unhappy at the club. It's playing with fire. It could lead to Messi not giving a shit on the pitch.

Bartomeu is already hated now but his life in Catalunya would be in serious danger if he'd let Messi go even if that's the best for the club right now imo but FC Messi fans (for whom he can't do anything wrong) would never accept this. On the other hand even with his immense wages he also still brings a lot of money to the club through sponsors etc. which we need now more than ever.

Messi only wanted to go to City and they wouldn't pay any fee for him so there is no way we could've sold him especially with Messi insisting he's a free player (but if he truly believed that then why he didn't actually sign with City if he was so desperate to leave and let a court decide whether he was right or wrong?). It was up to City to start negotiations by making a bid for him which they never did. For them it was always getting Messi for free now or wait until next year and then decide if they still want him/he still wants them. He was more of a luxury than a must signing for them. At least under current conditions. Without corona things could be different but still don't believe they would actually pay us what people expected. And most people would be disappointed if we'd "only" get 100m for him anyway.

At this point I don't care if Messi is happy or not to take a pay cut as I don't think he'll give much s*** on the pitch next season anyway. Hopefully he'll prove me wrong and want to leave the club (if this will be his last season) on the right note though.

But we should look for the club's best interest. And reducing players wages (all players, not only Messi obviously) is doing exactly that. We've lost 200m revenues due to Covid (which is not Bartomeu's fault). Yes, our wage bill has been problematic for years which is Bartomeu's fault but with projected revenues over 1B this season we could still maintain the same wages we've had or even increase them slightly. Lowering wage bill without Covid would still be ideal but not an absolute neccessity like it's now.

 

[serghei]

Pique shouldn't be out that wide leaving an easy pass to the player marked by Lenglet. It allows an easy pass to that player and then a lay-off to the player behind busquets (who busquets should be marking better). In fact busquets standing so close to Frenkie is creating an overload on the right hand side with a couple of simple passes.

That is not an easy pass because Semedo is very very close to Davies. If Semedo is not there, maybe. That's the whole point for Semedo pressing Davies, to make him pass back. Problem is while the threat of Davies gets deactivated by that press, the ball is released to Thiago who is free.

And about Pique, those lateral moves from the CBs are very normal and happen a lot. One of the reasons why you need faster defenders - those positional exchanges and transitions need to happen faster, leaving less time for the opponent to make a move in space.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Imagine dissecting a 8-2 defeat lmfao.

We were shite end of!

Exactly. This wasn't just tactics. No matter how good tactics we had, we would lose that game. Physically we were on the level of teenager when they are peak performing adults. It looked like first division team Vs fourth division physically. Bayern ran over us. Simple as that.

You can't compete if your physical level is that much worse than your opponent, especially when they are very close in skill level too.

 

[ItachiXXX]

Can't attract bids if Messi believes he's free to sign with anyone he wants. Also, no club would pay a significant fee for Messi and give him his high wages.

And no, Bartomeu is not trying to upset Messi. He'll ask a whole team to take pay cut not just Messi but of course as a club captain Messi is one of the players who he'll want to talk with.

Asking a pay cut after buying overpriced players. What for to save Barto's ass ? Messi and others should say no fuck off Barto 😆

 

[ItachiXXX]

Liverpool and roma beat us on intensity and stammina. They overrunned us. Add to that some mistakes and you get what you get. Vidal, busquets rakitic mf on anfield? Lmao.
In all those defeats, i repeat, we lacked pace upfront. We need someone that should put opposition defensive line on high alert with runs behind. We are lacking that massively.
Wider the field, more running they need to make. More energy is wasted for them. A lot of little things could be achieved that would go in our way by only that, but its not that im saying that would solve all our problems.

Liverpool beat Barca not because they run the most. They made their chances while Barca didn't. Then add up that PTSD hit the backline and of course overrated Ter Stegen choke again in a big stage. Liverpool beat Tottenham because they pit run by 2km even if Tottenham had more chances for goals

 

[MagIX]

Imagine dissecting a 8-2 defeat lmfao.

We were shite end of!

I agree, the reason is realy simple and clear: we were shit. End of story.
But some people think that if M?ller had played for us and Messi for Bayern, we would have won 8-2 because M?ller runs 20 km.

 

[te amo barca]

Looks like Koeman thinks Messi is a midfielder too. Against Gimnastic he was playing in a sort-of-Ziyech role with far less defensive responsibilities, of course. He would change positions with Pedri and appear in the center or on the right wing, CAM/RW hybrid.

Pedri has the legs to play in that complementing role for Messi but he is 17. Trincao may be a good fit for that position too. Not sure Coutinho has the legs and Dembele the workrate (and ability to play down the middle occassionally but he used to do that at Dortmund) to do that as well.

 

[Laplacian]

He's a below average manager don't expect anything decent from him.

 

[Messigician]

Looks like Koeman thinks Messi is a midfielder too. Against Gimnastic he was playing in a sort-of-Ziyech role with far less defensive responsibilities, of course. He would change positions with Pedri and appear in the center or on the right wing, CAM/RW hybrid.

Pedri has the legs to play in that complementing role for Messi but he is 17. Trincao may be a good fit for that position too. Not sure Coutinho has the legs and Dembele the workrate (and ability to play down the middle occassionally but he used to do that at Dortmund) to do that as well.

So Messi doing whatever he wants for the 4th season running

Got it nothing has changed