Lionel Messi - v7

raskolnikov

Well-known member
I think alot of that is him being stubborn. He lacks stamina and workrate so instead of moving to a more fixed position up front he decides to drop deep and attempt dribbles his old self would make - add to this managers with no balls to tell him where to play and we end up with a tactical mess. Ronaldo in this aspect really out did him, I remember people were saying Ronaldo's pace would dry up and he'd be exposed whilst Messi would evolve into a midfielder.. heh
Nah man, you can look it up. Even years ago people predicted Ronaldo would be an Inzaghi/ rvn type striker because of his off the ball movement.
Messi would be a creator. Only thing some got wrong was thinking he would be xavi in his 30's but even then people pointed oit the lack of workrate compared to Xavi.
 

ItachiXXX

New member
Here we go again Forum De Amigos acting as an expert before the season start and cherry picking pictures that will favor their agenda 😆 still believing that the more you run = win. But majority of the UCL champ run less than the opposing team. But it's Messi and Suarez walking fault why bums like Semedo and overrated Ter Stegen choking in big stages. Oh how the master tactician Setien didn't exist. Barca parking bus soon or forum de amigos should be a fun of Athletico instead
 
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Respekt_III

Anti-everything
Here we go again Forum De Amigos acting as an expert before the season start and cherry picking pictures that will favor their agenda �� still believing that the more you run = win. But majority of the UCL champ run less than the opposing team. But it's Messi and Suarez walking fault why bums like Semedo and overrated Ter Stegen choking in big stages. Oh how the master tactician Setien didn't exist. Barca parking bus soon or forum de amigos should be a fun of Athletico instead

You really are an idiot.
 

JohnN

Senior Member
No one says the front 2 shouldn't be doing more defensively. Suarez even pressured pretty hard in the second half but to no avail, because there is no system in place to press as a team.

@Sergei, you provide images almost a minute before an action. We can see after the initial image (the one that Messi should be pressing but FDJ is forward pressing - I'd say Vidal should be there and neither Messi or FDJ) that Thiago is just behind the mid line, with all the Barca defense and Midfield in front of him. There are 2 defenders behind him. That is not considered a lethal situation is it? He is nowhere near out box and we still have numerical advantage. Following the rest of the analysis, it's evident that the majority of the mistakes were made from Sergi Roberto in that action. Even if our attackers tried to press more there, the defense would still pull through easily as they were just more people from Bayern there.
P.S. Wtf is Vidal in all of those images? he was at the top of the diamond to help put pressure on the back line.
 

serghei

Senior Member
No one says the front 2 shouldn't be doing more defensively. Suarez even pressured pretty hard in the second half but to no avail, because there is no system in place to press as a team.

@Sergei, you provide images almost a minute before an action. We can see after the initial image (the one that Messi should be pressing but FDJ is forward pressing - I'd say Vidal should be there and neither Messi or FDJ) that Thiago is just behind the mid line, with all the Barca defense and Midfield in front of him. There are 2 defenders behind him. That is not considered a lethal situation is it? He is nowhere near out box and we still have numerical advantage. Following the rest of the analysis, it's evident that the majority of the mistakes were made from Sergi Roberto in that action. Even if our attackers tried to press more there, the defense would still pull through easily as they were just more people from Bayern there.
P.S. Wtf is Vidal in all of those images? he was at the top of the diamond to help put pressure on the back line.

That's the problem. Pressing is done as a team to impede lethal situations from happening. The optics where you allow the other team to create attacks to stop them near your box is not what this team should be about.

Vidal was on the other side. He was left midfielder in 4-4-2. The action is carried mostly on our right, on Messi, Roberto, and Semedo.

On that action the midfield is Vidal (LM), De Jong , Busi, Roberto (RM). I'm sorry, but when Thiago looks to get on the ball near Messi, Messi can't just walk carelessly and allow Thiago to pick up the ball and go past him that easily. And break in midfield in space. Before you know it, like in the images posted, he's sitting in the middle of the pitch dictating the game.

Here, what's Messi's excuse here? Thiago in space to pick whatever pass he wants. Look at Suarez, the left forward. Messi as a right forward should be roughly in the same line with him, where Thiago is pulling the strings from. It's blatantly obvious that Messi is a huge defensive liability. He's not even in the fucking frame. Drifting miles away from the action walking at slow pace.

Here it's absolutely essential to press Thiago, since he can have multiple options to put his teammates in great positions. Only one that could have done it was Messi. If you had a player with decent defensive contribution, Thiago will not even have been a possible pass here.
8.png


This is exactly what happens when you do not press. Thiago just moves uo with the ball in space, and picks up passes with ease to multiple running targets.

If you watch the CL final, PSG attackers didn't allow Thiago to get on the ball and dictate the game like ours did time and time again. So Bayern used long balls much more than against us, hence why they created fewer chances in 90 mins vs PSG than they did against us in 10 mins.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
The bottom line is Messi and Suarez are defensive liabilities. When you talk about us being crap defensively, you can't leave them out of the conversation, when they don't do their job.

When 2 players don't do their job defensively it becomes a mountain to climb for the other 8. Because there are top teams out there that immediately speculate this weakness.

Today I will post the 3rd and final part of this action, and Messi + Surez will show even more how little they do to help out in defense. It's really like playing with 2 men sent off half the time (51% Bayern had the ball, and basically in this time Messi and Suarez did little to no actual defending, needing other players to work harder to try to compensate - in vain, I might add). You simply can't defend with 2 men sent off (or 1 men sent off and 1 injured :lol:, let's be fair, they both together do half of Muller's defensive work). Everyone is important, that's why 1 red card for any team is so crucial.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
Here is more in depth analysis of that moment when Thiago starts to dominate the play.

11.png


Our 4-4-2 position can be seen clearly, and is pretty decent and compact, except for one player. Who is the player in that image that is not where he needs to be in order to defend this action well? The one that doesn't contribute at all. At this point, everyone is where he should be (or at least somewhat acceptable) except Messi. Even Suarez is keeping the shape compact. But not Messi, Messi is out, allowing Thiago to make the play happen.

Also, further developing on Semedo's position. In my opinion, he does not make a mistake here, because we can see Pique keeping Perisic in check. Semedo presses Alphonso into a safety pass, and at the same time blocks the direct pass to Perisic with his cover shadow. If Messi does his job here, in this moment, we are well placed. The pass to Perisic is neutralized both by Semedo through blocking the path, and by Pique by direct marking.
 
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Kul_z

Senior Member
That's the problem. Pressing is done as a team to impede lethal situations from happening. The optics where you allow the other team to create attacks to stop them near your box is not what this team should be about.

Vidal was on the other side. He was left midfielder in 4-4-2. The action is carried mostly on our right, on Messi, Roberto, and Semedo.

On that action the midfield is Vidal (LM), De Jong , Busi, Roberto (RM). I'm sorry, but when Thiago looks to get on the ball near Messi, Messi can't just walk carelessly and allow Thiago to pick up the ball and go past him that easily. And break in midfield in space. Before you know it, like in the images posted, he's sitting in the middle of the pitch dictating the game.

Here, what's Messi's excuse here? Thiago in space to pick whatever pass he wants. Look at Suarez, the left forward. Messi as a right forward should be roughly in the same line with him, where Thiago is pulling the strings from. It's blatantly obvious that Messi is a huge defensive liability. He's not even in the fucking frame. Drifting miles away from the action walking at slow pace.

Here it's absolutely essential to press Thiago, since he can have multiple options to put his teammates in great positions. Only one that could have done it was Messi. If you had a player with decent defensive contribution, Thiago will not even have been a possible pass here.
8.png


This is exactly what happens when you do not press. Thiago just moves uo with the ball in space, and picks up passes with ease to multiple running targets.

If you watch the CL final, PSG attackers didn't allow Thiago to get on the ball and dictate the game like ours did time and time again. So Bayern used long balls much more than against us, hence why they created fewer chances in 90 mins vs PSG than they did against us in 10 mins.

Thats 8 vs 9 players. Players went out of their positions and left flanks exposed. If there was a system, alba would be left, semedo would be right, busquets, de jong and roberto covering the space infront of pique and lenglet, and vidal who should attack players with the ball.
If davies went in middle like he did, there would be roberto. Perisic on the left with semedo close. Gnabry would leave the area because of the busquets and de jong presence. Kimmich wouldnt have a free space if alba was there. So that leaves you with goretzka in the middle that could be free and only non risky option. You closed the gaps, and thiago has posession where if he wants to advance needs to dribble past someone, and in that area thats the gamble he wont take, so most likely he would play the backpass. Maintaining the position, and press in situations where you're sure that formation is stable, that your press attempts wouldnt leave area exposed, press like a unit.
Semedo example, he went for davies, and in that example roberto should went on flank.
You cant press like headless chickens, you press only when the ball carrier doesnt have a safe route pass and in those situations thiago has a high percentage of making a mistake, deploying a risky pass that could lead to the shaky ball control by whoever is on receiving end of the pass, and then you press like madman, something that, believe it or not, Messi is the best in reading those kind of situations.
 

serghei

Senior Member
12.png


After Messi's error, there is another error at the exchange of positions by Pique - Roberto. Pique goes back to his center position as the ball is played back to an open Thiago. But his movement is not picked up by Roberto, who should, as a free player having no one next to him, drift wider and cover for Perisic. Because Perisic is the only threat by Bayern in this area.

The biggest defensive mistakes for me are on Messi and Roberto. Messi because he doesn't respect any defensive shape and doesn't perform any role defending, and Roberto because he doesn't move in synchronization with his teammates, especially Pique. Pique and Roberto are both well positioned to block Perisic, but after 3 seconds both lose him.
 

Kul_z

Senior Member
Here is more in depth analysis of that moment when Thiago starts to dominate the play.

11.png


Our 4-4-2 position can be seen clearly, and is pretty decent and compact, except for one player. Who is the player in that image that is not where he needs to be in order to defend this action well? The one that doesn't contribute at all. At this point, everyone is where he should be (or at least somewhat acceptable) except Messi. Even Suarez is keeping the shape compact. But not Messi, Messi is out, allowing Thiago to make the play happen.

Also, further developing on Semedo's position. In my opinion, he does not make a mistake here, because we can see Pique keeping Perisic in check. Semedo presses Alphonso into a safety pass, and at the same time blocks the direct pass to Perisic with his cover shadow. If Messi does his job here, in this moment, we are well placed. The pass to Perisic is neutralized both by Semedo through blocking the path, and by Pique by direct marking.

Thats a textbook example how bayern was pulling our players out of their positions. Pique by being far right covering for semedo/roberto was an initial mistake that led to bayerns advantage to exploit free spaces in other parts of the field
 

serghei

Senior Member
Thats 8 vs 9 players. Players went out of their positions and left flanks exposed. If there was a system, alba would be left, semedo would be right, busquets, de jong and roberto covering the space infront of pique and lenglet, and vidal who should attack players with the ball.
If davies went in middle like he did, there would be roberto. Perisic on the left with semedo close. Gnabry would leave the area because of the busquets and de jong presence. Kimmich wouldnt have a free space if alba was there. So that leaves you with goretzka in the middle that could be free and only non risky option. You closed the gaps, and thiago has posession where if he wants to advance needs to dribble past someone, and in that area thats the gamble he wont take, so most likely he would play the backpass. Maintaining the position, and press in situations where you're sure that formation is stable, that your press attempts wouldnt leave area exposed, press like a unit.
Semedo example, he went for davies, and in that example roberto should went on flank.
You cant press like headless chickens, you press only when the ball carrier doesnt have a safe route pass and in those situations thiago has a high percentage of making a mistake, deploying a risky pass that could lead to the shaky ball control by whoever is on receiving end of the pass, and then you press like madman, something that, believe it or not, Messi is the best in reading those kind of situations.

8 vs 9 players is excellent for an attacking team having control and initiative. Why do you think teams that defend deep put 10 players behind the ball?
 

Kul_z

Senior Member
12.png


After Messi's error, there is another error at the exchange of positions by Pique - Roberto. Pique goes back to his center position as the ball is played back to an open Thiago. But his movement is not picked up by Roberto, who should, as a free player having no one next to him, drift wider and cover for Perisic. Because Perisic is the only threat by Bayern in this area.

The biggest defensive mistakes for me are on Messi and Roberto. Messi because he doesn't respect any defensive shape and doesn't perform any role defending, and Roberto because he doesn't move in synchronization with his teammates, especially Pique. Pique and Roberto are both well positioned to block Perisic, but after 3 seconds both lose him.

exactly. You just proved that the biggest fuckup was our back line not being synchronyzed, players playing without clear instructions what should happen when one of them leaves his area, who should cover, and in those fuckups our mf fell apart
 

Kul_z

Senior Member
lets agree to disagree.
You think that messi is our biggest burden, i think that system is our biggest burden, playing players that dont fit and that we dont have a clear formation.

You cant play all season long in one, attacking formation and then in toughest matches change it to 'cover the cracks' formation.
 

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