Lionel Messi - v7

[KingMessi]

A quote comes to mind.

A man stands alone at the plate. This is the time for what? For individual achievement. There he stands alone. But in the field, what? Part of a team. Teamwork... Looks, throws, catches, hustles. Part of one big team. Bats himself the live-long day, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and so on. If his team don't field... what is he? You follow me? No one. Sunny day, the stands are full of fans. What does he have to say? I'm goin' out there for myself. But... I get nowhere unless the team wins.

Sure, this is Bob De Niro, as Al Capone in "The Untouchables", monologuing on baseball. But it's applicable to any team sport.

Messi, as great as he is, is one man out of 11. You cannot single him alone out for any of the CL disasters or even the finals losses with Argentina.

 

[KingLeo10]

A quote comes to mind.



Sure, this is Bob De Niro, as Al Capone in "The Untouchables", monologuing on baseball. But it's applicable to any team sport.

Messi, as great as he is, is one man out of 11. You cannot single him alone out for any of the CL disasters or even the finals losses with Argentina.

The question is about his fighting spirit in those games, not the end result. I don't think his lack of effort in the Atletico games or the Roma game is defensible.

 

[serghei]

lol, childish

As expected when someone posted that picture showing Messi's statistical dominance over more then a decade and forum de amigos are here trying to diminish him.

Don't want to get into this again, mate. At this point everyone knows which is which. As you say, it's childish. We'll end up calling each others deluded fanboys or haters.

Everybody knows my position, your position, and so on. I am looking forward to expanding this subject with users I can find some common ground with. And avoid useless arguments if possible.

 

[serghei]

A quote comes to mind.



Sure, this is Bob De Niro, as Al Capone in "The Untouchables", monologuing on baseball. But it's applicable to any team sport.

Messi, as great as he is, is one man out of 11. You cannot single him alone out for any of the CL disasters or even the finals losses with Argentina.

He is, but individually he didn't do enough. It's not like he had a big impact in these games and the team failed him. The team and him failed themselves. It's a mutual thing.

Maybe I could make a case for Liverpool tie overall. But in nearly all the other away game disasters, the whole team was terrible.

 

[Birdy]

First of all, everyone has got an opinion, not a problem.
Let me ask you this, if he had an actual WC coach in all these years, don't you think it would solve most if not all supposed issues?

Why the fuck is a problem if a guy has an opinion and how the fuck do you ppl know if he oversteps? I'm not talking about "sources" i'm talking about facts. Was he responsible for Arda/Gomez/.. by any chance?

If by any chance he really does have some sort of decision making power he sucks at it big, big time.

I will repeat once again, the cause of all problem in the past years lies with the politicians on the board. Everything else is just a consequence.

Everyone has an opinion, sure. But other professional players keep their opinion for themselves or only express it when their manager explicitly asks for it.
The fact that Messi is vocal in private to his coaches/teammates and the board is documented by many reports. And of course, there have been incidents that have been leaked (like his fights with Lucho, who was not willing to let it slide)
How much he pusses on each subject, we don't know. But we know he influences for sure. It is a delicate balance between respect, fear, and power/authority.
Messi has acquired too much power in influencing decision making at a level higher than even a captain of a team.

Now, about a WC coach, it's an interesting hypothetical scenario, that frankly I don't know the answer.
I guess there is only a minimal list of names out there, which can command immediate respect from Messi and at the same time make him step back to his position of being a mere player or a captain of the squad.

He is, but individually he didn't do enough. It's not like he had a big impact in these games and the team failed him. The team and him failed themselves. It's a mutual thing.

Maybe I could make a case for Liverpool tie overall. But in nearly all the other away game disasters, the whole team was terrible.

Anfield is a clear exception. I don't remember how many km he ran, but he created 3 one v one chances that his teammates wasted. And you can say that if one or two of them had been converted Liverpool would have never reached 4. Of course, the flip side is that at Camp Nou Liverpool deserved 2-3 goals and did not get any.
Funny games luck plays

 

[Rory]

His terrible performances in the ucl have been PSG, Roma, Atletico both times and Bayern. The liverpool and juventus away match especially he set up extremely good goal scoring chances that weren?t taken. If you genuinely want a genuine discussion that?s the sort of common ground you have to accept.

Thing is these points and many more have been made before that you?ve simply refused to acknowledge or refused to engage with the ideas. Sitting on a high horse now is a bit late.

 

[Daniele]

His terrible performances in the ucl have been PSG, Roma, Atletico both times and Bayern. The liverpool and juventus away match especially he set up extremely good goal scoring chances that weren?t taken. If you genuinely want a genuine discussion that?s the sort of common ground you have to accept.

Thing is these points and many more have been made before that you?ve simply refused to acknowledge or refused to engage with the ideas. Sitting on a high horse now is a bit late.

yes but every great soccer player had his own shit matches. Maradona, whom I have seen throughout his career, had them. And so messi.
The motivation of your criticism is "failure in decisive games": they are not decisive games, simply because they ARE ALL DECISIVE in champions. In how many of the other decisive matches has he been fundamental? When one team is dominated by another (as happened in the last Barcelona eliminations) it is impossible for a single player from that team to stand out. I am willing to hear criticism of any great player, and I realize the difference between a player in his 20s and one who is 33 but the arguments you use here are strawmen. Again, the bias is to think that Messi is a superhero who has lost his powers. No: he's just one of the 3 strongest players ever (no more in his prime, but still able to do some magic).

 

[malvolio]

The fact that Messi is vocal in private to his coaches/teammates and the board is documented by many reports. And of course, there have been incidents that have been leaked (like his fights with Lucho, who was not willing to let it slide)

facts are sure things, not some mambo-jumbo that leeches in the media conceive for clicks so that gullible average joes like you want to believe.

fact is that he never really appointed a manager at this club. and he never got his way in transferring one of his friends here.

yes, he hasn't spoken against any manager publicly(the lucho episode for all we know wasn't a beef only between him and messi). yes, he wanted neymar back, but in the end nothing happened. and yes, he has a very close friendship with suarez(similar to the one he has with aguero), but there is no evidence suarez played because of this.

one favor that the club granted him was to integrate messi's right hand man, pepe costa, into the camp nou staff. but nobody is mentioning that since it doesn't collect enough clicks.

otherwise it is normal that the best player in the history of this club and the one who defined an era, should have a certain aura around him. but as wolfe pointed out, he never really wielded that power more than to say some nice words about some people that were interpreted as clear signs of dictatorship.

so messi is still the same average footballer, that receives bad advice and talks shit when opening his mouth. the ones that see him as this machiavellian figure are just idiots who've watched too many movies.

 

[Rory]

yes but every great soccer player had his own shit matches. Maradona, whom I have seen throughout his career, had them. And so messi.
The motivation of your criticism is "failure in decisive games": they are not decisive games, simply because they ARE ALL DECISIVE in champions. In how many of the other decisive matches has he been fundamental? When one team is dominated by another (as happened in the last Barcelona eliminations) it is impossible for a single player from that team to stand out. I am willing to hear criticism of any great player, and I realize the difference between a player in his 20s and one who is 33 but the arguments you use here are strawmen. Again, the bias is to think that Messi is a superhero who has lost his powers. No: he's just one of the 3 strongest players ever (no more in his prime, but still able to do some magic).

I don?t think you?ve been reading what I?ve said lol.I?ve actually been arguing the opposite of what you think Is my point. Nothing straw man about saying he?s had a handful of poor performances.

 

[Givenchy]

I hope City try to work something out in January.. not that I'd like to watch City or anything but its sad to see him wasting his and our time.

Imo that Anfield humiliation really broke Messi, so much so that the Bayern 2-8 probably didn't really set in. Liverpool at Camp Nou, Messi carried us to a lucky win, all we had to do is defend that lead. remember at the start of the season, his CL speech? the team let him down big time and that is when he checked out. I think it was Morten who said Messi gave his all during that campaign

 

[ItachiXXX]

9/11 from 2008-09 to 2018-19, more then a decade of dominance

But he needs to score more and run more. He choked in very important games while his teammates playing Great and carrying him all the time. They are tired carrying Messi while him getting all the praise. Messi's myth of greatness are all media propaganda nothing more. Never seen more Overhype player than Messi

Here is the thing:
There is a crucial difference between just wanting X objective and acting towards it, and following a method or path of getting X which is flawed.

Messi surely wants to win. It's evident from his statement and from the plain fact that he wanted to leave when he realizes that the team cannot compete for the highest trophies.
He is also a professional, he trains and fulfills his formal requirements.
The problem with Messi starts when you realize he has AN OPINION on how to win. He has an opinion on where he wants, feel comfortable playing, on how he moves on the pitc. And then he has also an opinion on what coach might help the club (Tata Martino, Valverde to stay), what player should the club buy or NOT buy in order to improve (Neymar to come back, NO griezman, etc)
Of course Messi does not know shit about football tactics, and cannot decide correctly both on his role on the pitch and on the personnel and the tactical setup of the rest of the team.

So, the problem starts when Messi oversteps his position as a player and has opinions on matters that should normally be the job of the director of football, the recruitment team, and the board.
Now, as I said a few pages back, responsibility lies with Messi for that, but also lies with all the people in the chain (coach, directors, board members, president) that let him do that and assume that position.

There is nothing black and white in the above. He is not a malevolent, assertive little dictator who just takes pleasure in using power, but he is certainly assuming authority he should not assume and guess what: he is not suited to judge and take decisions on these situations.

Are you serious ? And you actually believe one of you in here, in this forum know better than Messi ? 😆

 

[ItachiXXX]

11/12 was just unbelievable, I dont think there will be player in the next 100 years who will break it.

That's a glitch but Suarez was insane back then in the era of Messi and CR7 dominance he able to out work them both another glitch

He's going to look back in maybe 10-20 years and definitely rue how he approached the game post 2015 (his own level of commitment in some seasons, which teammates he trusted in, which managers he backed etc).

We're seeing so many elite athletes extending their run into the mid-late 30s these days (just look at the 2 champions from yesterday) that I have to be honest, I've lost a bit of respect for Messi and his essentially calling it a day in the latter stages of CL outside of 2018-2019. That doesn't mean he's lazy or that he didn't have an unbelievable work ethic compared to other professional football players or even the very good ones. But at the top of the mountain, the margins are very thin and he has put nowhere the same effort (physically or tactically) as a Lebron, CR7, or tennis big 3.

Lebron ? 😆 My boy recruited, team up with other franchise players to win. And look at the performance of his teammates and compare it to Messi's teammates. Take away the hype you people creating, his teammates are mediocres. Meanwhile Barca bought overpriced players. Given the fuck that they beat Miami that nobody gives a chance to make it to the finals and major injuries of the top players. Seriously forum de Amigos and their know it all, calling Messi lack of effort.

 

[Birdy]

But he needs to score more and run more. He choked in very important games while his teammates playing Great and carrying him all the time. They are tired carrying Messi while him getting all the praise. Messi's myth of greatness are all media propaganda nothing more. Never seen more Overhype player than Messi

Are you serious ? And you actually believe one of you in here, in this forum know better than Messi ? ��

I didn't say I know, and I am not a coach.
There are coaches out there, and there are astute tacticians out there.
Messi ain't one.

If he decides to become someday one and try his luck as a coach, we will see if he ever becomes one. For the time being, he does not have the knowledge required for the job.

 

[serghei]

Anfield is a clear exception. I don't remember how many km he ran, but he created 3 one v one chances that his teammates wasted. And you can say that if one or two of them had been converted Liverpool would have never reached 4. Of course, the flip side is that at Camp Nou Liverpool deserved 2-3 goals and did not get any.
Funny games luck plays

I agree, Anfield can be seen as an exception. Although he also missed good chances in that match, not only his teammates. At one point instead of shooting when clear on goal he tried to nutmeg Matip and was dispossessed.

We should have scored a goal before Liverpool made it 2-0, be it through Coutinho, Suarez or Messi himself a couple of times.

 

[ItachiXXX]

Players that scored over 50 goals without including penalties.

every running, physically fit Barca players >>> Messi and his Amigo the cancers of Barca