Lionel Messi - v7

[JamDav1982]

Many people here say that ye olden day was more easier for skilled wizzard to shine, which is why we have lesser pool of superstars in football now days. Everything is more equal, but not of less quality so potential Cruifs or Maradonas get lesser ability to assert then selves. Then there's another opinion (that sometimes come from then same people, who agree with the former) that in ye olden days players like Maradona were hacked to death, because the play was more rough and difficult for attacking players and ref allowed it. Then which was it? From some people's perspective skillful players, who played before the 2010 and before were just lucky to play on "easy mode" or something.

Defenders having more leeway to hack down players makes it easier to dribble past or pull them out of position but more likely to get injured.

Teams are set up much better these days in concentrating on denying space rather than more brutal defending.

Players being 'hacked to death' is a bit of a myth as well. There were more brutal tackles more often but watch 86 WC and officials were more or less protecting Maradona and blowing for fouls any time he was touched.

 

[Ritchie]

Germany has forever been Argentina's nemesis when it comes to World Cup glory

They've certainly got revenge for 1986.

 

[BBZ8800]

Germany has forever been Argentina's nemesis when it comes to World Cup glory

Barca:Bayern 0:7 and 2:8 don't help too much either.

Barca's biggest disasters.

 

[Messigician]

Yes the Germans seem to be giving Messi trouble in decent years

 

[BBZ8800]

Many people here say that ye olden day was more easier for skilled wizzard to shine, which is why we have lesser pool of superstars in football now days. Everything is more equal, but not of less quality so potential Cruifs or Maradonas get lesser ability to assert then selves. Then there's another opinion (that sometimes come from then same people, who agree with the former) that in ye olden days players like Maradona were hacked to death, because the play was more rough and difficult for attacking players and ref allowed it. Then which was it? From some people's perspective skillful players, who played before the 2010 and before were just lucky to play on "easy mode" or something.

And there is a factor in club's football: today the difference in wealth is bigger.
Barca and RM in 2010 or 2015 were way richer than bottom-table teams in 1970 or 1990.

In 80s or 90s, it was impossible to statpad 11:1 agsinst Getafe, which CR7 was often doing.
Or scoring 4-6 goals on almost every home La liga match (Barca).

So, imo, a far better indicator shouldn't be La liga matches, but CL matches agsinst top Europen teams or NT matches (where there is no money to buy better teammates like at Real and Barca).

People will get offended, but on those levels, Messi has been dissapointing since 2012.
And especially after 2015, with iirc 1 goal on away KO matches in 5 years (Chelsea?)

On an NT level, iirc, Messi has never scored a goal from an open play in his whole career, lol (counting both World cups and Copa Americas).

People will now reply: Messi's Argentina sucked.
And Barca sucked after Xavi and Iniesta.

All in all, Messi's carreer has some hot and cold facts:
Hot:
1. always dominating La liga, mostly against weakwer teams
2. CL domination in 2009, 2011, 2015

Bad:
1. NT career
2. Zero NT KO stages goals in his career (without penalties)
3. Atrocius CL record for Barca in away CL matches after 2015, or even after 2015

5 years ago, for me, Messi was an undisputed GOAT.
But today, I don't have a GOAT anymore.

Both Messi, Maradona and Pele (and even CR7) have their pros and cons.

 

[serghei]

Barca:Bayern 0:7 and 2:8 don't help too much either.

Barca's biggest disasters.

We gave them a 3-0 and a 4-0 on Camp Nou so it's not that bad overall.

 

[Horatio]

We gave them a 3-0 and a 4-0 on Camp Nou so it's not that bad overall.

Nahh...no way to put those scores into perspective. 8-2 is horrendous.

 

[serghei]

Nahh...no way to put those scores into perspective. 8-2 is horrendous.

Well, when Liverpool lose 7-2 to Aston Villa...

 

[JamDav1982]

And there is a factor in club's football: today the difference in wealth is bigger.
Barca and RM in 2010 or 2015 were way richer than bottom-table teams in 1970 or 1990.

In 80s or 90s, it was impossible to statpad 11:1 agsinst Getafe, which CR7 was often doing.
Or scoring 4-6 goals on almost every home La liga match (Barca).

So, imo, a far better indicator shouldn't be La liga matches, but CL matches agsinst top Europen teams or NT matches (where there is no money to buy better teammates like at Real and Barca).

People will get offended, but on those levels, Messi has been dissapointing since 2012.
And especially after 2015, with iirc 1 goal on away KO matches in 5 years (Chelsea?)

On an NT level, iirc, Messi has never scored a goal from an open play in his whole career, lol (counting both World cups and Copa Americas).

People will now reply: Messi's Argentina sucked.
And Barca sucked after Xavi and Iniesta.

All in all, Messi's carreer has some hot and cold facts:
Hot:
1. always dominating La liga, mostly against weakwer teams
2. CL domination in 2009, 2011, 2015

Bad:
1. NT career
2. Zero NT KO stages goals in his career (without penalties)
3. Atrocius CL record for Barca in away CL matches after 2015, or even after 2015

5 years ago, for me, Messi was an undisputed GOAT.
But today, I don't have a GOAT anymore.

Both Messi, Maradona and Pele (and even CR7) have their pros and cons.

You always go on about this era being so easy to score in and '80/90s so difficult'.

Barca from 91-94 scored more than did last season and when Ronaldo arrived for one season scored over 100. Barca with best ever team and best ever attacking player at times in best ever front three have been scoring probably average of 105-110.

Barca went from scoring 76 in 07/08 to 105 when Pep took over and Messi exploded... that was not due to some huge sudden decline in that year.

Real when signed Ronaldo went from scoring 84 to 105.

You put far too much emphasis on poor competition as if it was much more difficult in past.

 

[Morten]

You always go on about this era being so easy to score in and '80/90s so difficult'.

Barca from 91-94 scored more than did last season and when Ronaldo arrived for one season scored over 100. Barca with best ever team and best ever attacking player at times in best ever front three have been scoring probably average of 105-110.

Barca went from scoring 76 in 07/08 to 105 when Pep took over and Messi exploded... that was not due to some huge sudden decline in that year.

Real when signed Ronaldo went from scoring 84 to 105.

You put far too much emphasis on poor competition as if it was much more difficult in past.

In fact, when Cristiano Ronaldo left, as a team, we lost pretty much exactly his 50 goals contribution each of the last two seasons, with the last season being made-up for by an improved defense and penalties at crucial times(basically).

 

[eaman]

And there is a factor in club's football: today the difference in wealth is bigger.
Barca and RM in 2010 or 2015 were way richer than bottom-table teams in 1970 or 1990.

In 80s or 90s, it was impossible to statpad 11:1 agsinst Getafe, which CR7 was often doing.
Or scoring 4-6 goals on almost every home La liga match (Barca).

So, imo, a far better indicator shouldn't be La liga matches, but CL matches agsinst top Europen teams or NT matches (where there is no money to buy better teammates like at Real and Barca).

People will get offended, but on those levels, Messi has been dissapointing since 2012.
And especially after 2015, with iirc 1 goal on away KO matches in 5 years (Chelsea?)

On an NT level, iirc, Messi has never scored a goal from an open play in his whole career, lol (counting both World cups and Copa Americas).

People will now reply: Messi's Argentina sucked.
And Barca sucked after Xavi and Iniesta.

All in all, Messi's carreer has some hot and cold facts:
Hot:
1. always dominating La liga, mostly against weakwer teams
2. CL domination in 2009, 2011, 2015

Bad:
1. NT career
2. Zero NT KO stages goals in his career (without penalties)
3. Atrocius CL record for Barca in away CL matches after 2015, or even after 2015

5 years ago, for me, Messi was an undisputed GOAT.
But today, I don't have a GOAT anymore.

Both Messi, Maradona and Pele (and even CR7) have their pros and cons.

Messi has knockout goals from open play in the copa america

 

[mc_lovin]

So you can only dominate the CL when you win it. Noted.

 

[Givenchy]

All in all, Messi's carreer has some hot and cold facts:
Hot:
1. always dominating La liga, mostly against weakwer teams
2. CL domination in 2009, 2011, 2015

Bad:
1. NT career
2. Zero NT KO stages goals in his career (without penalties)
3. Atrocius CL record for Barca in away CL matches after 2015, or even after 2015

This isn't true. look at Messi's performances in el clasicos, vs Atleti etc i mean the guy scored a hattrick vs Madrid at 19-20 years old. Messi was a monster in la liga and the CL but something changed and the ending to his career is a sad one. I remember when Ronaldo was known as the flat track bully

 

[snowy]

..

All in all, Messi's carreer has some hot and cold facts:
Hot:
1. always dominating La liga, mostly against weakwer teams
2. CL domination in 2009, 2011, 2015

Bad:
1. NT career
2. Zero NT KO stages goals in his career (without penalties)
3. Atrocius CL record for Barca in away CL matches after 2015, or even after 2015 ..

Were those really bad though? Guess you could say they were not GOAT level if you simply base your judgment on his KO goal stats but that's you being lazy. Needs more words

I mean, you're calling his NT career bad when the dude is the all time leading scorer in Conmebol, and where he played mainly as a CAM or False 9 PLUS

he received the World Cup 2008 Standout Player Award along with the Gold medal +

Copa America

2007 Final and Best Young Player Award
2015 Final and Tournament MVP Award (which he rejected)
2016 Final + 3 x man of the match in both QF and SF and Final + 2nd highest scorer and highest assist provider and that's despite missing out all the early stages due to a lumbar injury picked up in the early rounds
Here's what the winning side Chile Coach said:
Juan Antonio Pizzi: "I think the best player ever played today here in the United States."

WC:

2010: Q. Final _ loss to zzzzze Germanz
2014: Final + Golden Boot best player of the Tournament with top stats in chances created, dribbling runs, deliveries into the penalty area and through-balls in the entire competition + he was 3rd topscoarer
2018: R16 lost to the frenchies who went out to went it all (yeah so, guess that makes the Griezzz the better player mmmhhh

better I think look at the big picture. and also include his record assists and pre-assists to just get a glimpse of his perfs as playmaker and scorer

here's a compil of his goals [3 or 4 are missing I think]

there's a few open play World Cup ones vs Nigeria and Iran but even if most were in friendlies, can't deny the difficulty level of the golazzos in there

 

[Gnidrologist]

^Indeed. He's not perfect in everything, which makes the GOAT debate open, but he's unfairly criticized as if he's been complete failure for argies, while Maradona gets too much credit for that one time performance, while being overall worse in terms of consistency and among much better partners throughout his NT career.