Lionel Messi - v7

[Tekkers]

He drops in midfield, because he wants to and the manager is too much of a wimp to forbid him that. Or at least set the circumstances when he can drop, and the circumstances when he has to stay up.

It's pretty obvious that the veterans like and support Valverde because they can do what they want. He lets them do what they want and tries to somehow make it work by sacrificing the other players and making them work twice as hard to make up for their laziness. It's pretty clear at this point.

this is nothing but the truth. this is one of the reasons why dembele's first halfs outshine his second halfs. he spends the first half not only having to create for the team but also track back relentlessly. all the while being the only one on the team who is fast enough to break on the counter, which means that he has to again sprint forward when the team recovers possession, so that by the second half he's out of gas

if the team is to succeed then everyone has to pick up their slack, there's no reason why aguero can increase his workrate as he's aged but for messi it's the opposite.

 

[Potroh]

Yes,he is not moving off ball,yes he is usually not pressing etc.BUT a good manager and a good sporting direction would ensure that the team would be properly built around Leo’s abilities and weaknesses,instead of relying solely on him.

Well said.
Any opponent is so scared of Messi, that even if he does nothing else but stands static anywhere, there will be one, often two, defenders marking him or minimally keeping an eye of him.
It is simply a matter of tactical awareness how to circumvent his lack of kilometers, which is too big a task for Valverde.
There would easily be at least 5-6 different tactical elements to circumvent Messi's known work-rate, which has never been the problem anyway, simply because while standing he is switching off at least one defender.

Of course the problem becomes the real problem if TWO of them are standing, that's why I mentioned that in Suarez's thread that the problem is with Suarez and not Messi.

If folks are so intense on talking about Messi's small interview, pay attention on the DIFFERENCE, namely that he declares himself to be a creator nowadays, whereas EV plays him as a winger. Maybe I'm wrong but it is a sign he might sooner or later give up defending the wise cucumber-coach relatively soon.

 

[serghei]

Good luck having a two-man midfield essentially. This Messi behind Suarez shtick works only if we play 4-4-2 like in 17/18.

A 4-2-3-1 with Messi as the CAM is a 4-4-2 by default anyway because he is the most advanced player in the defensive stage and nonexistent without the ball in the attacking stage in order to be considered a real midfielder as well. Sure, he will drop deep, but that only thwarts our attacking options because we would have one player less in the final third. Which means that the two wide midfielders have to do the heavy lifting of defending and moving off the ball. Griezmann and Dembele are both unfit for this, to use Fati in this way is to kill his talent too. This 4-2-3-1 would be good enough to dismantle most La Liga sides at Camp Nou, most probably, but nothing besides that.

Paulinho/Van de Beek type of midfielder works well with Messi because they know when to attack the space that Messi leaves when he drops deep. He (Leo) could potentially assume Tadic's role of a false 9 in the current Ajax side. But to have him, a real striker and also two wingers on the pitch at the same time is a defensive suicide. Would not work that well in attack either.

Yea, the way I see it too.

Basically, the team could compensate for Messi's low workrate and poor off the ball movement as long as he plays False 9, or winger, and Suarez is dropped. Will he be on board with something like that? Doubt it.

Put our most aggressive and defensive beast midfielder in the area Messi plays, as well as the most disciplined hard working winger-forward. Which are Vidal and Griezmann. As long as these two play near Messi's zones, we maybe could have enough work-rate in that area to even compete with teams like Liverpool, who are looking more and more like the benchmark you have to get close to in Europe.

If one of them (Griezmann and Vidal) is on the other side, and the other is on the bench so we can accommodate Busi and Suarez in the starting line-up we're basically fucked. At this point, it is managerial suicide to play Messi and Suarez close to each other away from home in CL. That whole area is as good as dead in terms of pressing, off the ball movement, or defensive coverage.

 

[bismp]

Well said.
Any opponent is so scared of Messi, that even if he does nothing else but stands static anywhere, there will be one, often two, defenders marking him or minimally keeping an eye of him.
It is simply a matter of tactical awareness how to circumvent his lack of kilometers, which is too big a task for Valverde.
There would easily be at least 5-6 different tactical elements to circumvent Messi's known work-rate, which has never been the problem anyway, simply because while standing he is switching off at least one defender.

Of course the problem becomes the real problem if TWO of them are standing, that's why I mentioned that in Suarez's thread that the problem is with Suarez and not Messi.

If folks are so intense on talking about Messi's small interview, pay attention on the DIFFERENCE, namely that he declares himself to be a creator nowadays, whereas EV plays him as a winger. Maybe I'm wrong but it is a sign he might sooner or later give up defending the wise cucumber-coach relatively soon.

I agree.Besides,people forget that Messi was never great at pressing consistently (especially after 2013-ish) and that even back during the Pep years,Messi was playing mostly with the ball on his feet.Actually,one of the genius aspects of the False 9 system was that Leo would drop back deep and act as a 4th pseudo-midfielder(along with Xavi-Iniesta-Busi).But,yeah let’s act like Messi was a poacher back in the day

The only thing you can hold against him is that he keeps defending that prick Valverde and that he probably is a big reason for fat,old Suarez being a starter.To be honest,these decisions are both really disappointing,but this is mainly the board’s role to solve these problems and keep Leo on check.

 

[Potroh]

Basically, the team could compensate for Messi's low workrate and poor off the ball movement as long as he plays False 9, or winger, and Suarez is dropped.

No need for compensation. It's a simple tactical matter as I tried to mention.
He always compensates himself by pulling 1-2 opponents by simply being there and it has always been the case.

Better we watch the PSG-Marseille "classico", it's so enjoyable, specially to see a coach who has the talent for modern attacking variations, unlike the Barca-man in the age-worn jacket.

 

[Givenchy]

Well said.
Any opponent is so scared of Messi, that even if he does nothing else but stands static anywhere, there will be one, often two, defenders marking him or minimally keeping an eye of him.
It is simply a matter of tactical awareness how to circumvent his lack of kilometers, which is too big a task for Valverde.
There would easily be at least 5-6 different tactical elements to circumvent Messi's known work-rate, which has never been the problem anyway, simply because while standing he is switching off at least one defender.

Of course the problem becomes the real problem if TWO of them are standing, that's why I mentioned that in Suarez's thread that the problem is with Suarez and not Messi.

If folks are so intense on talking about Messi's small interview, pay attention on the DIFFERENCE, namely that he declares himself to be a creator nowadays, whereas EV plays him as a winger. Maybe I'm wrong but it is a sign he might sooner or later give up defending the wise cucumber-coach relatively soon.

I'm not having a go at you here or anything but honestly, do you really believe Valverde is the one who decides Messi plays at RW?

EV has no respect from our seniors, they literally walk all over him and Suarez starting shitshow after shitshow is evidence of that. if Messi sees himself as a creator/midfielder then he'll have to work extra hard on his stamina and workrate but he won't. 1 more Ballon d'or and CL and i think Messi will call it a day honestly

i dont believe we can beat teams like Liverpool, City etc anymore relying purely on Messi magic, even the GOAT isn't enough.

 

[BBZ8800]

I'm not having a go at you here or anything but honestly, do you really believe Valverde is the one who decides Messi plays at RW?

About Messi playing where he wants, in some posts it sounds as if Messi decided to drop deep because of EV.

But even in 2015/16 under Lucho, when he had:
1. creator Iniesta
2. creator Neymar
3. creator Busi
4. a false midfielder/creator in Dani Alves
= Messi was dropping deep to create and to do whatever he wants or feel like in that moment

And then, if Lucho, who was our legend as a footballer.
A guy who played for Real Madrid and then signed for Barca.
And a guy who was trolling and provoking Real Madrid's fans whenever he scored a goal against them.
And a guy who was a tough guy, a captain of Barca and who was often fighting with everyone on the pitch.
If that guy didn't have balls/ability to tell Messi to play as a RW, is there any coach in the world whom Messi would listen?
I don't believe that Pep would be more successful regarding that problem either.

Lucho trolling Real Madrid for years:

Messi dropping deep into CM/CAM role even in 2016:

No wonder that we are shittier and more sterile each new season on away CL matches with Messi playing on that position where he is easily neutralized by stronger teams by 3-4 defenders in the middle at the edge of a box.
Against Levante, that tactics is good enough though...

 

[Potroh]

I'm not having a go at you here or anything but honestly, do you really believe Valverde is the one who decides Messi plays at RW?

I guess it is most definitely EV who lays out the principal formation.
We all know that the right expression is "Messi starts from the RW" but that in itself influences how the midfielders are spread and never forget that Barca traditionally had good attacking RBs, which Roberto is not and Semedo just could be.

Ideally Messi should be a false9 creator & scorer, just as @seghei says, regardless his age, and at the very minute it would happen, the formation and matching tactics would change so, that the right side wouldn't be empty anymore. Obviously for a change like that Suarez would need to go and that is the point where Messi's role comes in, but I'm not sure it works as easy as many imagine that.
I don't think he openly has pressure on EV to play his buddy all the time, rather - I'm saying it without having an insight - I imagine EV knows that without words being spoken and acts accordingly.

You are damn right that probably EV has no respect from the seniors, which unfortunately works as a rolling stone, because it automatically results the younger ones also to disrespect him.
I think, just think, that the entire locker-room plays the theatrical play, as if they would hear and listen to Valverde, but in reality they simply ignore him. Of course it doesn't mean that Messi is the one making the actual formation, and I also seriously doubt that EV is actually listens to his "advises".

I think EV was busy with screwing up the midfield and giving bad advises to the defenders last season, while he left the attack on the "known" formation of Messi and Suarez, regardless if Coutinho or Dembele or whomever was the 3rd attacker.
The situation has changed considerably by the arrival of Griezmann, because EV knows he will not allow himself to play yet another star out of position, unless luck stics to his side.
I think the team and EV is in the PHASE of a faint hopie that it might even work with Griez on the left, but by now most of them know it will not work, so that's why we hear faintly unsatisfied voices from inside.

I'm also just guessing, but Messi's important role is not in making the actual formation, but rather if he could be able to persuade his physically rapidly ageing friend to accept the bench.
Nevertheless I'm on the opinion, and that's just an outsider thought, that there will be unexpected changes very soon, but still it is the coach who makes the formation and not the GOAT. Probably everyone silently know his opinion, that they consider to be better than Valverde's and it will lead to some unexpected havoc, soon.

 

[Potroh]

Messi playing on that position where he is easily neutralized by stronger teams by 3-4 defenders in the middle at the edge of a box.

If Messi is neutralized by 3-4 defenders as you say, it is a great thing because he occupies 3-4 defenders, so the OTHERS should step up in a much easier tactical scenario.
The actual problem is that those others cannot step up and if Messi doesn't DO BOTH CREATION and EXECUTION, with at least 2-3 defenders in his neck, if he doesn't do it, nobody does.

Suarez, as a typical CF9 tries to do that FOR Messi, making room and space, but when the defenders are occupied WITH Messi, he is usually a dead fish alone in the middle. Messi can easily create 1on1 situations for Suarez, the problem is that Suarez is bad in these situations.
This entire scenario is nothing else but a lack of tactical variations, lack of creativity from the coach and obviously some lack of qualities from all who should make USE of the situation that Messi is feared like nobody else.

 

[BBZ8800]

This entire scenario is nothing else but a lack of tactical variations, lack of creativity from the coach and obviously some lack of qualities from all who should make USE of the situation that Messi is feared like nobody else.

Oh, I see, EV again.
Do you have an explanation why Messi in the middle didn't work in 2016 and 2017, before EV, under Lucho?
When Messi could have passed the ball easily to let's say Neymar, Suarez, Iniesta?

Yet, Messi in the middle and Barca lost: Atletico 2:0, Psg 4:0, Juve 3:0.
A lot of minutes for Messi in the middel as a creator.
Yet, we didn't have too much chances and shots on goal.
Mighty excuse EV wasn't even there then.

 

[Potroh]

Oh, I see, EV again.
Do you have an explanation why Messi in the middle didn't work in 2016 and 2017, before EV, under Lucho?

Of course there is an explanation, probably it is just YOU who can't see it.
Once again you come with 2-3 years of history and you can't avoid mentioning some results, which have nothing to do with the present situation we were talking about.

But I'm in a good mood, so will tell ya:
- 2016 was VERY different from 2017. The former was the first year without Alves, that made things upside down. Arda Turan, A.Vidal, should I list the problems that influenced attack? Iniesta who rapidly lost physicality and an ageing Mascherano, etc.
- 2017 was good - apart from the CL - until EV came. But it's not his fault that Neymar's departure changed everything again. Gomes, Denis, my god.

Messi in the middle ALWAYS worked.
When Messi creates he 95% of cases creates from the middle, so your assumption is wrong.

But if you love the results and only the results: the Athletico game was not football. It was a wrestling game with serious referee mistakes.
Psg in Paris was a result of being bounder and unprepared.
Juve was similar and the team was extremely fatigued for some reason. In both latter games MATS was horrible by the way.

 

[Judoman]

Do you have an explanation why Messi in the middle didn't work in 2016 and 2017, before EV, under Lucho?

Easy. Lucho isn t a wc coach by any means. In that period defence and midfield were weak spots. "Give the ball to MSN ASAP" tactic.

You are again reinventing the wheel

 

[BBZ8800]

Easy. Lucho isn t a wc coach by any means. In that period defence and midfield were weak spots. "Give the ball to MSN ASAP" tactic.

You are again reinventing the wheel

We have Busi-Frenkie-Arthur midfield and Messi is still dropping deep?

Don't you think that it is not connected with a coach but with Messi doing what he wants and how he feels like during a match?

 

[Potroh]

Easy. Lucho isn t a wc coach by any means. In that period defence and midfield were weak spots. "Give the ball to MSN ASAP" tactic.

Yeah, Lucho is not the greatest on the planet, for sure.
But the team - regardless some of the results - was the best on Earth in 2015-16.
Things got worse by 2017 and there is a good reason why Lucho didn't want to carry on.

 

[Givenchy]

Oh, I see, EV again.
Do you have an explanation why Messi in the middle didn't work in 2016 and 2017, before EV, under Lucho?
When Messi could have passed the ball easily to let's say Neymar, Suarez, Iniesta?

Yet, Messi in the middle and Barca lost: Atletico 2:0, Psg 4:0, Juve 3:0.
A lot of minutes for Messi in the middel as a creator.
Yet, we didn't have too much chances and shots on goal.
Mighty excuse EV wasn't even there then.

I honestly don't think ANY manager in the world could deal with this current situation. looking back at Valverde during his time with Bilbao.. he wasn't this brainless, he gave youth a chance and he must've been doing something right to recieve praise from Cruyff himself.

fast forward to when he joins Barca. we have a squad who have won the CL, some multiple times. world cup winners, aging superstars with barely any hunger left in them and then behind all that, an utterly retarded board in Barto.

theres a clear lack of direction, planning and also communication from board to manager; see the Malcom case. Valverde asked for Willian - we know Willian isn't Barca quality BUT its the request from the manager, the guy who is supposed to assess and work with the squad on a daily basis. what does Barto do? hijacks the Malcom transfer, a player Valverde had probably never even heard of. the result: Malcom wastes a season of his career frozen out, unwanted.

the galactico policy requires a strong manager able to handle the egos. handling doesn't mean bending over for them either. to me atleast, it looks like our board are hellbent on buying a 100mil+ galactico disregarding where he might actually fit in the team and then telling Ernie "here we got you a new, shiny expensive player.. make it work. oh and he cost over 100million euros by the way' and the result of this is Griezmann playing LW. we have no choice but to play him when we spend almost a club record fee on him - then you have the actual club record fee, Coutinho. loaned out for a season because he has no place in the team. our board saw him as an Iniesta replacement, Valverde clearly did not. did Barto even consult on whether the manager saw Coutinho as a fit? again, its asking the manager to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Messi could choose to play central and have Suarez benched. his talk of bringing the CL back to the camp nou contradicts his stance on Suarez bff situation and backing this manager..