Lionel Messi - v7

[khaled_a_d]

About Messi playing where he wants, in some posts it sounds as if Messi decided to drop deep because of EV.

But even in 2015/16 under Lucho, when he had:
1. creator Iniesta
2. creator Neymar
3. creator Busi
4. a false midfielder/creator in Dani Alves
= Messi was dropping deep to create and to do whatever he wants or feel like in that moment

And then, if Lucho, who was our legend as a footballer.
A guy who played for Real Madrid and then signed for Barca.
And a guy who was trolling and provoking Real Madrid's fans whenever he scored a goal against them.
And a guy who was a tough guy, a captain of Barca and who was often fighting with everyone on the pitch.
If that guy didn't have balls/ability to tell Messi to play as a RW, is there any coach in the world whom Messi would listen?
I don't believe that Pep would be more successful regarding that problem either.

This is actually an underrated post.
Messi was dropping deep since Tata's year, when we Xavi/Iniesta/Busquets starting. Xavi was obviously old but the other 2 was on their prime years. And even Xavi was still great passer and we had Alves on RB as probably the greatest playmaking fullback of modern era if not ever.
World cup comes, and Messi plays very deep with NT.
Next Season we bring Suarez. For half a year we try to fit MSN with Messi still dropping deep and play centrally. Until he is finally convinced to play as a RW and boom, Barca of 2015 calendar year played one of the greatest football that was ever seen. Probably greatest football we have played with any manager other than Pep and that was consistent even when Messi was getting injured and we were playing with the likes of Munir/Sandro/Roberto in his place. Beating RM 4-0 with Roberto on right side etc.
2016 comes (second half of the season). we still have a functional midfield, we still have Neymar and Alves. Suddenly Messi starts playing deep again, but hey we were still dominant and no one notice.
Except that good managers took notice, We have tough schedule lose 11 points in 4 games, we get out of CL while teams abusing our right side. We salvage the season since we had an easy schedule remaining and we beat Seville in overtime for CDR title.
That should have rang a bell for someone. Yet we still have Messi as SS rather than RW. Roberto right side get abused and Roberto get the blame. We even had to switch to 343 in some parts of the season to cover for it.
Next year EV came, we play 442 with Neymar was out, his replacement can't get into the pitch due to injuries.Team who was supposed to be in crisis manage to win domestic double, Roberto play his best year as RB (was in Liga team of the year in some polls) as he finally had someone to support him.
Next year, everyone who could help in retaining 442 is gone and we have to deal with forcing Coutinho and Dembele on the pitch. We face same dilemma that started 30 months ago.
That isn't taking into account the struggle of any RCM we had.
This year it is no different. Semedo was suffering against Prague, FDJ was suffering too. Both didn't have an actual bad performance but both had to deal with things they aren't supposed to.
Messi have been vocal for years about his need for a starting no 9, about him being a creator rather than a scorer. This isn't just a coaching thing.
Obviously, those struggles wasn't on Messi only, age played a part along other mistakes. But he remained a tactical issue for us.
A manager usually have to play his best player in his most comfortable position and Messi is the best player by landslide. But he is more and more difficult to make team adjust for him.

 

[Laplacian]

This is actually an underrated post.
Messi was dropping deep since Tata's year, when we Xavi/Iniesta/Busquets starting. Xavi was obviously old but the other 2 was on their prime years. And even Xavi was still great passer and we had Alves on RB as probably the greatest playmaking fullback of modern era if not ever.
World cup comes, and Messi plays very deep with NT.
Next Season we bring Suarez. For half a year we try to fit MSN with Messi still dropping deep and play centrally. Until he is finally convinced to play as a RW and boom, Barca of 2015 calendar year played one of the greatest football that was ever seen. Probably greatest football we have played with any manager other than Pep and that was consistent even when Messi was getting injured and we were playing with the likes of Munir/Sandro/Roberto in his place. Beating RM 4-0 with Roberto on right side etc.
2016 comes (second half of the season). we still have a functional midfield, we still have Neymar and Alves. Suddenly Messi starts playing deep again, but hey we were still dominant and no one notice.
Except that good managers took notice, We have tough schedule lose 11 points in 4 games, we get out of CL while teams abusing our right side. We salvage the season since we had an easy schedule remaining and we beat Seville in overtime for CDR title.
That should have rang a bell for someone. Yet we still have Messi as SS rather than RW. Roberto right side get abused and Roberto get the blame. We even had to switch to 343 in some parts of the season to cover for it.
Next year EV came, we play 442 with Neymar was out, his replacement can't get into the pitch due to injuries.Team who was supposed to be in crisis manage to win domestic double, Roberto play his best year as RB (was in Liga team of the year in some polls) as he finally had someone to support him.
Next year, everyone who could help in retaining 442 is gone and we have to deal with forcing Coutinho and Dembele on the pitch. We face same dilemma that started 30 months ago.
That isn't taking into account the struggle of any RCM we had.
This year it is no different. Semedo was suffering against Prague, FDJ was suffering too. Both didn't have an actual bad performance but both had to deal with things they aren't supposed to.
Messi have been vocal for years about his need for a starting no, about him being a creator rather than a scorer. This isn't just a coaching thing.
Obviously, those struggles wasn't on Messi only, age played a part along other mistakes. But he remained a tactical issue for us.
A manager usually have to play his best player in his most comfortable position and Messi is the best player by landslide. But he is more and more difficult to make team adjust for him.

Exactly, you and BBZ are right. Its literally what messi prefers considering hes done it with great midfields too, ive beeen convinced about it since he moved centrally after valverde tried to use him as a winger. If its happening with 3 different coaches....

It was bearable when he was younger because he could still make explosive runs, but now eh. People say we wasted his prime but hes just as culpable, unwilling to adapt to his ageing body. Would be a monster in a CF aguero (aguero still has the license to roam a bit) like role as hes the best finisher in thr world, and we can finally have a balanced front 3 with two wingers.

Sigh i can only dream

 

[Judoman]

We have Busi-Frenkie-Arthur midfield and Messi is still dropping deep?

Don't you think that it is not connected with a coach but with Messi doing what he wants and how he feels like during a match?

He has a tendency to drop deep for sure and considering his passing and vision, that s a good thing.. A good coach would exploit this, don t you think?

 

[Lapi]

Oh, I see, EV again.

It's not EV again but it's still EV.
Problems with Valverde are continuous since he stepped his foot in and will only be solved when he is out.

Nitpicking on Messi, who is a seldom-born genius in the sports history, is not just stupid but it's turning against the basic logic surrounding the game.
A mediocre manager will never have the mental capacity to train a genius, hence the question in itself is ill-fated.

Similarly ill-fated is mentioning away-games only (like the 0:4 without the 6:1) is nothing but pure negativity that BBZ is seemingly very good at (apart from Rakitic, who could be a perfect raw model for the statue of mediocrity).
All that one needs to do is to watch recent Barcelona games and it will be obvious the problem is to do with the very style the manager represents.

The ageing g o a t is the least of problem, so all the potential haters and argle-bargle self-made-tacticians here should do, is to think about what the same team would be with a manager with the essential qualities.

 

[BBZ8800]

He has a tendency to drop deep for sure and considering his passing and vision, that s a good thing.. A good coach would exploit this, don t you think?

I don't think that it is a good thing.
Here are some reasons why.

During Pep, Messi ran like 7km per match, right?
But as some others mentioned, those 7kms were used in the attacking 3rd.
So, those were "smart" 7 kms used.

Today, he runs even less, like 6 km, irrc.
But today, since he is doing what he wants, he probably spends 3 kms around the box, and 3 kms out of his total 6 kms are "wasted" into jogging back to midfield and dribbling past 3 players at a CM role.

I'll add some other numbers which are just my estimation:
So, in 2011:
Messi was 24.
He ran 7 kilometers.
He used all 7 kilometers around the box.
And those 7 kms were used with his Pace 8/10, Dribbling 10/10, Finishing skills 10/10.

Today, in semis of 2019 or 2020:
Messi is 32 or 33.
He runs 6 kms.
But let's say that only 3 kms are used for smart runs around the box.
Plus, due to age, his pace is not 8/10 anymore, but let's say 5/10. His dribbles are not 10/10 but 8/10 today.

So, basically, compared to Pep's era:
1. you get roughly 50% of Messi's smart impact around the box
2. and even when you get that impact, a current Messi is let's say roughly 70% of Messi from 2011 in terms of skills.

So, if my maths are right (50% drop due to less running around the box and 30% drop on top of those skills due to ageing and lost skills), we could say that a current Messi offers only 35-40% of skills/danger/impact in terms of dribbling and shooting compared to Messi from Pep's era.
Now, if you add that we also lost Xavi, Iniesta, Alves. That Busi is almost finished, then we could say: that a whole team has dropped significantly compared to those days.
Plus, Messi himself offers way less in terms of actual scoring (in a CL matches) compared to young Messi.
Now add an ageing core into these maths.
Add players who won too much and lost motivation.
Add bad fits like Coutinho, Griezmann, Dembele.
Add EV.
Add Barto and bad sporting directors and zero long term planning.

And then you have a team who has 100s of problems.
This is why I am saying all the time:
1. no, we won't suddenly fly without Rakitic/Suarez in a CL, because: our team will still be old. Suarez will still be bad. Dembele will still be dumb. Messi will still offer only 40% of an old Messi. Semedo will still struggle in attack. Frenkie will still need to play out of position due to Messi and Busi. Pique will still be old. Lenglet will still be average. Mats has too frozen games too often in big matches when a team is down.

So:
1. without Messi=we are very bad
2. but with a current Messi=we are very limited.
We are awesome in La Liga, where we are winning on an autopilot, due to technical superiority of our teams and due to them feeling safe and like on their own playground in La Liga.
In a CL though, since 2013 (except in 2015), we are playing horrible on away matches.
1) our midfield was often bad
2) our players are too old
3) our players can't run
4) our players are slow
5) our team doesn't have an attacking versatility (like playing possession, counters, crosses). We can only play a slow granny possession football and we have to pass every ball to Messi and then due to his physicality, we can't play counters and crosses
6) our mental strength is on a comedy level
7) leaders in our team? Lol
8) aerial strength against corners in a CL (we conceded a header from Griezmann for 1:0 in 2016, we conceded a header from Juve for 3:0 in 2017, we conceded a header from Roma for 3:0, we conceded a header from Wijnaldum for 3:0 and a goal after a corner from Origi for 4:0 against Liverpool).

I mean, yes, we can win it with a lucky draw and 1-2 good matches.
But if we'll get a normal/tough draw, there is no way that a current team wins against 3 big opponents and survive 3 away matches (imagine: Atletico in 1/4, Bayern in semis and Liverpool in a final).
Imo, there is no way for this team not to lose at least one with 3:0 on one of 3 away matches.

So, it is what it is.
We can only lower our expectations and wait for Barto, EV, half of our team and even Messi (this sounds weird, I know) retire and then will be able to turn the page and start from zero.
Until then, you can sell all Rakitics in the world, fire all EVs and bench Suarez, not too much will change.

** For guys who would like to see a new CAM, and Griezz as a CF.
I think that ALL 3: CAM, Messi and Griezz would play on the same position.
And our heat map would look as if we were playing with 9 players instead of 11 (since 3 players would occupy the same position in the center around the box).

 

[Judoman]

I don't think that it is a good thing.
Here are some reasons why...

.

You have a tendency to overestimate an importance of a single parameter. It s not just about him or one single issue, it s about who he is surrounded with and who he is coached by.
We are not taking advantage of his production of chances and passes as we should. Suarez needs like 100 shots and a solar eclipse to score and he is unbenchable for some reason. We are playing 4-3-3 so Messi doesn t
have (good) passing/scoring options on each side of the field.
I m no tactical expert, but it makes sence to me that in order to max the use of his talents (passing,creativity,scoring) and hide his flaws (defence) he should be put close to goal and in the middle, with as many
passing options as possible. Preferably these passing options are fast and technical players. I d love to see Fati on the wing with Leo in the middle for example.

I don t think that 4-3-3 with him ruining the structure is the way to go. The stubborn persistence with illogical, rigid tactic and slow and unmotivated players is Valverde s fault.

 

[Potroh]

Now you can clearly see the commando of the talentless is well on the way to kill the honorable Mammoth.
These are only preliminary training sessions.

Just wait until they put on the shirt and step foot on the pitch!

They are very good armchair observers, so they know that nowadays an average footballer definitely SPITS more on the grass compared to shooting on goal, so in order to to spare considerable energy, they rather start with spitting and it will go on to the last minute, when the entire pitch will be filled with phlegm...

 

[khaled_a_d]

He has a tendency to drop deep for sure and considering his passing and vision, that s a good thing.. A good coach would exploit this, don t you think?

It isn't a good thing for the dynamics of the team. It leads to the team being slow and less fluid. Take a lot from the midfield.
Couple of years ago it was Raki and old Iniesta to be blamed. "Messi has to drop deep because midfield isn't doing their job" was the excuse.
Now we have a stronger midfield, better technical abilities with arguably the best 2 U-25 midfielders in the planet.
Let them do their thing and don't drop deep.
He is better moving between lines, when he is settled deep he is basically an old school number 10, a position that football have been moving away from for over a decade and half.

 

[Judoman]

It isn't a good thing for the dynamics of the team. It leads to the team being slow and less fluid. Take a lot from the midfield.
Couple of years ago it was Raki and old Iniesta to be blamed. "Messi has to drop deep because midfield isn't doing their job" was the excuse.
Now we have a stronger midfield, better technical abilities with arguably the best 2 U-25 midfielders in the planet.
Let them do their thing and don't drop deep.
He is better moving between lines, when he is settled deep he is basically an old school number 10, a position that football have been moving away from for over a decade and half.

Yes, i didn t express myself well. I meant that his desire to create is a good thing and should be exploited and maximised, while leaving him in the position to score.

But this is a tactical-coaching issue not a Messi issue. It is known the he has the tendency to participate in the creative part of the game, yet he is positioned on the right. It doesn t make sence from the basic geometry point of view.
If he was in the middle he would have more passing options and we would be more potent as a whole. Of course this would require some player changes, so.....no go.

 

[snowy]

beuuuah are we already near the phlegm stage? Alfreeeeeed! Get my Fortnite hazmat suit ready, call Cat and re-route our date to the Kiss Kiss Meow Meow Club in PSGotham



[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] , c'mon out with it! is this one of your social experiments? Cuz you're building up quite a lil'army of spitting alpacas here. Errr excuse me a sec, Alfreeeed, hurry up you old bat!!!

.. and.. And also bring my snorkel kit!!! I'm getting drenched

ok Penguin, Game On!

Srsly for a sec, can't believe so many here waiting for Messi to retire so that Barca can rebuild.

other teams would be on Cloud9 with him joining their troops!

Doesn't even take a tactical genius. You can play him False 9, with pacy wingers. You can also go 4231 with Dej Art in mid or even 3 3 4 (risky for most but a coach like 10Hag could pull it off)

......................Laut/Top
Sancho/Ansu...Messi/Grizz...Bouz/Top
..............Art/Top......Havertz
......................Dej/Top
..........Diop.....Konate...Todi/Sem

Bart can do it. Just need sell the vets + Couti, Umti n Bob

If Messi drops to Mid, no probs Havertz goes up Criss-Cross
Say the Reds swarm him with players, he doesn't even need to use magic evasive manoeuvres, he's got Arthur and Dej right next to him for easy 1/2s, quick pass n move. Upfront, he's got Havertz and the 3 speed demons for the same or better yet, his impeccable through-balls.

And that's for when he drops to mid. If he stays up, Havertz and Arthur are plenty good to combine with him and the other 3 forwards. In b4, to the non-fans just replace Demb with your top choices dudes

That's a wicked Top 11 right there. All of them dope in tight spaces, strong on the ball, quick thinkers, can do 1-2s, triangles, hardcore geometry, 1 touch passes, No Touch passes lol

McMach's the name n speed's the game

Point is, Messi ain't no tactical nightmare, he's this once in a lifetime opportunity.

And guys here still moaning like.... ok I'll be nice.

 

[BBZ8800]

Yes, i didn t express myself well. I meant that his desire to create is a good thing and should be exploited and maximised, while leaving him in the position to score.

But this is a tactical-coaching issue not a Messi issue. It is known the he has the tendency to participate in the creative part of the game, yet he is positioned on the right. It doesn t make sence from the basic geometry point of view.
If he was in the middle he would have more passing options and we would be more potent as a whole. Of course this would require some player changes, so.....no go.

1. about what Messi wants and regarding coaches, imo, the whole club, our coaches and Argentinian NT coaches knows that Messi is the best.
And that their teams are several times weaker without him.
My opinion lately is that Messi is an awesome footballer, but his short and longterm career planning is very bad.
Remember how CR7 lost 1 kg each year to keep his pace, since doctors advised him to do so.
CR7 wasn't playing in CDR in order to be 100% ready for the most important trophy=Champions league.
CR7 wasn't playing in La Liga matches before CL KO rounds in order to be ready 100% for Champions league matches.

And then you have Messi on the other hand.
He wants to play every game.
He wants to play every game for 90 minutes.
He is probably angry if he can't play in CDR 1/8 against Levente at Camp Nou or against Girona at Camp Nou 3 days before CL semis.

I know Messi loves football. He wants to play every minute, but imo, he also wants to break all records, as majority of top players.

Can you bench Messi in CDR?
No.
Can you bench him in La Liga?
Well, you can do that 1-2 times per season at max.
So, even though Messi is harming himself with playing every single match for 90 minutes, there is nothing what coaches can do.
If Messi wants it, they have to allow him.
Imo, the same is with dropping deep.
Even though it is hurting both him and a team, there is nothing what you can do.
If Messi wants it=you have to listen to him.
I believe that BOTH the board and a coach know that Messi can leave the club in any moment (he has a clause in his contract), so the only way to keep him here is to try to keep him happy as much as possible.
So, if Messi wants to drop deep and play against Levante in 1/8 of a CDR, he will do that.

2. regarding your comment that Messi could give the most in the centre, I don't think so.
Since Pep's days, teams started to play with 2 buses in the middle, since they know that playing through the middle is our biggest strength.
Teams have even intentionally left a lot of space on flanks since they know that we won't cross and that we will always play a backpass to Messi who waits on the edge of a box.
So, teams are playing a risky game:
1. they will put 2-3 players on Messi on the edge of a box
2. and risk on flanks and with other teammates who might receive a pass from Messi.
But since other teammates were: Dumbele, Suarez, and 3 midfielders where only Rakitic was scoring goals here and there, and 2 fullbacks who need 50 matches to score 1 goal
= then their risks make sense.
They will stop Messi and hope that our other clueless players won't score.

So, with moving Messi in the middle:
1. he won't score too many goals on a CL level since he will be man-marked by 2-3 opponents in the middle.
Since he is slower, with a weaker acceleration and his dribbles are not as lethal as in the past, he will rarely get into clear goalscoring opportunities through the middle.
2. regarding his passing to teammates, again: Suarez is wasting a lot of chances. Dembele will either score a golazo or hit the 30rd row on the stands. Arthur, Frenkie and Busi aren't natural scorers. Semedo and Alba neither.
If we had Ronaldinho-Etoo-Messi with Deco behind lienup where a lot of players can score, then Messi's passes from a No10 position would make sense.
But today, in our current team and with our Messipendencia, when you put Messi at a NO10:
1. you are hurting Messi's chances to score
2. and other players will almost never score. The sad thing is: Suarez is actually our biggest chance to score a goal against big teams under these circumstances.
And then, some of you would play Messi as a No10 or false 9, remove even Suarez and rely on whom: Fati, Dembele and Griezz on wings to score from Messi's passes?
No offense, that just sounds tragical for a CL level.

 

[Nello]

If we had Ronaldinho-Etoo-Messi with Deco behind lienup where a lot of players can score, then Messi's passes from a No10 position would make sense.
But today, in our current team and with our Messipendencia, when you put Messi at a NO10:

I miss prime Ronaldinho and Eto'o

 

[Judoman]

1. about what Messi wants and regarding coaches, imo, the whole club, our coaches and Argentinian NT coaches knows that Messi is the best.
And that their teams are several times weaker without him.
My opinion lately is that Messi is an awesome footballer, but his short and longterm career planning is very bad.
Remember how CR7 lost 1 kg each year to keep his pace, since doctors advised him to do so.
CR7 wasn't playing in CDR in order to be 100% ready for the most important trophy=Champions league.
CR7 wasn't playing in La Liga matches before CL KO rounds in order to be ready 100% for Champions league matches.

And then you have Messi on the other hand.
He wants to play every game.
He wants to play every game for 90 minutes.
He is probably angry if he can't play in CDR 1/8 against Levente at Camp Nou or against Girona at Camp Nou 3 days before CL semis.

I know Messi loves football. He wants to play every minute, but imo, he also wants to break all records, as majority of top players.

Can you bench Messi in CDR?
No.
Can you bench him in La Liga?

Again, you are describing coaching issues. What Messi wants or doesn t want doesn t matter. Coach is responsible to maximise his potential even
if it means resting him for a game or two. How hard is it to prove (with facts) to him that rest is good as you get older? I think the issue is, that
we were "blessed" with average or below average coaches since Pep. They ve put all eggs in (1) Messi basket, because without him the team sucked. With the exception of few Neymar based performances.
Strategically we miss used him since Xavi-Iniesta weren t in their prime anymore. Tactically and physically miss used him. Instead of him being an icing on the cake he was and is responsible for the whole creative and scoring part of the game.

We were over this multiple times dude. Why are we going over this again?

2. regarding your comment that Messi could give the most in the centre, I don't think so. Since Pep's days, teams started to play with 2 buses in the middle, since they know that playing through the middle is our biggest strength.

What i or you think doesn t matter. His abilities change with time. What was best few years ago isn t necessary best at this point in time.
I m not a tactical guru, but it makes sence to me, that it is a good idea to compensate for his weaknesses with proper squad adjustments and with proper
tactical adjustments. Did we do this? I don t think so.
The fact that teams play with buses in the middle against us can be exploited. Any predictable behaviour can be exploited, yes?
He is a passing and creative savant, don t you think that he would be able to maximise proper winger/scoring winger on the flanks if he was instructed by a good coach?


You ve been repeating yourself for a long time. You are searching for weaknesses in the wrong places. You are confusing consequences with causes. Eventually
you find the cause (board------>coach), but somehow you ve started this whole cycle again?

 

[te amo barca]

I am glad more people are finally able to see the issue with Messi's positioning and playing style that has been a tangible problem since January 2016.

 

[Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor]

I am glad more people are finally able to see the issue with Messi's positioning and playing style that has been a tangible problem since January 2016.

....whilst constantly ignoring all his numerous qualities he has brought to the team, pretending to be neutral and never praising any good performance of his, while in contrast defending every Ronaldo disasterclass as a 'good game.'

Seems legit.