Lionel Messi - v7

[Daniele]

You claimed media opinion is the most credible. I disagree but either way Ronaldo was voted ahead of Messi in four of last five years when take into widespread media opinion.

If same Guradian article voted Ronaldo ahead of Messi you would ignore it.

As said you just pick one that agrees and decide they are most credible.

There is zero logic in attributing art historians to football media vs those involved in football. The fact you think that is logical is enough for me to not even bother to labour on that one.

I can support it... Balondor is media driven. Three in last four seasons Ronaldo voted ahead of Messi. This season in FIFA vote media voted him ahead again.

ahah seriously??
I read the Guardian since many years and I like its ranking (the one drawn up by numerous journalists at the end of the year since 2012).
I find them competent and inspiring.
I no longer know in what language to write it:
I don't give a damn fuck about Messi vs Ronaldo. I don't even dislike Ronaldo, I don't understand why you keep mentioning this question.
The fact that football critics have to vote, footballers play football and coaches coach opens up quite self-evident to me.

 

[Daniele]

stay cool bro, you will get there too

 

[JamDav1982]

ahah seriously??
I read the Guardian since many years and I like its ranking (the one drawn up by numerous journalists at the end of the year since 2012).
I find them competent and inspiring.
I no longer know in what language to write it:
I don't give a damn fuck about Messi vs Ronaldo. I don't even dislike Ronaldo, I don't understand why you keep mentioning this question.
The fact that football critics have to vote, footballers play football and coaches coach opens up quite self-evident to me.

You are the one that weighed into the Messi v Ronaldo debate. If dont like it dont chip in.

'Football critics' have voted Ronaldo ahead of Messi in only large scale votes can point to in four of last five years.

Regardless the votes that matter the most to those in football is by fellow pros and by a long way.

 

[Daniele]

You are the one that weighed into the Messi v Ronaldo debate. If dont like it dont chip in.

'Football critics' have voted Ronaldo ahead of Messi in only large scale votes can point to in four of last five years.

Regardless the votes that matter the most to those in football is by fellow pros and by a long way.

ok man you convinced me with your witty arguments.
I'll tell you a secret:
I'm a Guardian reporter.
You deserved it

 

[JamDav1982]

ok man you convinced me with your witty arguments.
I'll tell you a secret:
I'm a Guardian reporter.
You deserved it

From the 'I watch more football' pathetic claim to sarcasm.

Went well for you.

Over and out.

 

[te amo barca]

In my opinion you say this only because you are influenced by those two or three alleged experts who repeat the same things on this forum 24 hours a day.

There is no need to cite "experts" that watch Barca once a month in a CL game. We watch all the games and can make some observations without the help of "authoritative" sources. That said, numerous former CL players and coaches tend to say that Messi has a free role at Barca - "the Messi role" as they call it. He doesn't have a role on the pitch, he's doing his own thing.

His role is a "free" one in the sense that he does not participate in pressing, moves off the ball wherever he wants to and doesn't keep shape. I have been saying this since about 2013 on this forum, so not, I am not "influenced" by anyone. Because Messi's production is normally insane offensively, this trade-off is largely beneficial for the team with the exception of high-stakes games in which he is "shut out."

You can look at his heatmap, at the number of kms run, at isolated in-game incidents during transition and counterpressing. The only season he decided to follow a relatively rigid RW role for one year, we won the treble in 14/15. He returned to his free central role in January 2016.

 

[Daniele]

From the 'I watch more football' pathetic claim to sarcasm.

Went well for you.

Over and out.

Never said thet:
since I'm Italian I have been watching all Juventus matches for 15 years. This I said.
The only thing pathetic is your total inability to interpret what your interlocutor says beyond your limited prejudices

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

chill guys, its christmas.

 

[te amo barca]

Never said thet:
since I'm Italian I have been watching all Juventus matches for 15 years. This I said.
The only thing pathetic is your total inability to interpret what your interlocutor says beyond your limited prejudices

Did you really? I find that hard to believe honestly. Your argument doesn't even make sense. If you're Italian, you could be from any other city other than Turin and hate Juve's guts, support Napoli, Livorno or something and watch Juve only 5-10 times a season at most. Not all Italian football fans watch Juventus regularly.

Don't think you would manage to watch dross Juve games with Ronaldo scoring all those pens regardless , would be bad for your health.

 

[Daniele]

There is no need to cite "experts" that watch Barca once a month in a CL game. We watch all the games and can make some observations without the help of "authoritative" sources. That said, numerous former CL players and coaches tend to say that Messi has a free role at Barca - "the Messi role" as they call it. He doesn't have a role on the pitch, he's doing his own thing.

His role is a "free" one in the sense that he does not participate in pressing, moves off the ball wherever he wants to and doesn't keep shape. I have been saying this since about 2013 on this forum, so not, I am not "influenced" by anyone. Because Messi's production is normally insane offensively, this trade-off is largely beneficial for the team with the exception of high-stakes games in which he is "shut out."

You can look at his heatmap, at the number of kms run, at isolated in-game incidents during transition and counterpressing. The only season he decided to follow a relatively rigid RW role for one year, we won the treble in 14/15. He returned to his free central role in January 2016.

I watch every game too. that's not a point
Nobody tends to say that Messi has a free role outside this magic forum, that's why I think u influence each other with this distorted narrative(or please show me who say this)
I don't think Messi don't partecipate in pressing or move as he wants off the ball: but even if he did that would not be a free role.
heatmap does not mean anything it depends on how you read it,
last sentence is pure bias.


U get confused.
What are we talking about then?
Messi has a lot of freedom of action because everything is based on his invention, and the invention itself cannot be constrained

Did you really? I find that hard to believe honestly. Your argument doesn't even make sense. If you're Italian, you could be from any other city other than Turin and hate Juve's guts, support Napoli, Livorno or something and watch Juve only 5-10 times a season at most. Not all Italian football fans watch Juventus regularly.

Don't think you would manage to watch dross Juve games with Ronaldo scoring all those pens regardless , would be bad for your health.

Yes, I am a Livorno fan, how did you discover me?

 

[Birdy]

\
At the same time, if anyone wants to criticize the Messi of 2020, go ahead.
For me, Messi in 2020 remains among the top 5/10 strongest players in the world.

Let me see.

2020 and we have:
Lewa, Kimmich, Thiago, Neuer, Gnabry, Alaba,
Salah, Mane, Van Dijk, Alisson, Robertson

Sorry, I just counted 11 players from only 2 teams that performed better in their respective positions than Messi in 2020.
You can assume how much the list will grow if I look at other teams as well.

So good luck with removing the bias glasses from your eyes

 

[Daniele]

Let me see.

2020 and we have:
Lewa, Kimmich, Thiago, Neuer, Gnabry, Alaba,
Salah, Mane, Van Dijk, Alisson, Robertson

Sorry, I just counted 11 players from only 2 teams that performed better in their respective positions than Messi in 2020.
You can assume how much the list will grow if I look at other teams as well.

So good luck with removing the bias glasses from your eyes

Goal 50, guardian, espn, fifa, cartert analytics (and counting)... Except CIES (55th place) which could be realistic also.
It?s a Bias world outside this forum my friend.

Wait... Could it be that there are 10 users in here who have prejudices, instead?

sorry what I'm going to think: your empirical proofs are objective (like yours above), what a fool I am!

 

[Vilarrubi]

Not only should he be scoring way more based on the amount of shots he’s taking, he should have way more assists but that’s out of his control.

 

[Birdy]

Not only should he be scoring way more based on the amount of shots he’s taking, he should have way more assists but that’s out of his control.

xA is not assists. It's expected assist.
Someone who passes well has good xA irrespective of assists.

Messi used to be top of the top in xA, the fact that he is so below so many others, even Canales and Nolito, should be telling to some here

Goal 50, guardian, espn, fifa, cartert analytics (and counting)... Except CIES (55th place) which could be realistic also.
It?s a Bias world outside this forum my friend.

Wait... Could it be that there are 10 users in here who have prejudices, instead?

sorry what I'm going to think: your empirical proofs are objective (like yours above), what a fool I am!

Show me the hard data analytics that prove so about 2020 (calendar year).

I guess none of these rankings is based on that, right?
The political correctness that surrounds Messi and Ronaldo is beyond par. You have always to include them top of whatever ranking is there because they were great in the past

 

[Daniele]

Show me the hard data analytics that prove so about 2020 (calendar year).

I guess none of these rankings is based on that, right?
The political correctness that surrounds Messi and Ronaldo is beyond par. You have always to include them top of whatever ranking is there because they were great in the past

Point is:
everybody in this world still consider Messi a very strong player.
Some users here consider him totally washed and done.

can we agree on this and end it here?