Lionel Messi - v7

[Morten]

It's more logical to think that 2 points dropped in the 3rd to last game (with 2 easy games remaining) had direct consequences on the title outcome and Barca's treble than it is thinking it had no bearing just because the guy scored 48 goals over the course of the other 37 games in the league campaign.

It's an exercise in plausibility...and deep down you know.

There's a reason why people talk about certain key league games when talking about title chances. Anything can happen in the others yes. But far more often than not, the expected result happens in the easier games with titles on the line.

Okay, fine, going that route, Messi 11/12 was a flop, i guess.

This is where your insane arguments leads us to.

 

[Morten]

I don’t. Under those circumstances it’s fair and I’d blame Barca player just the same if it was other way round.

I get what you’re saying, harsh to blame it on that one moment when he scored 48 goals but that’s football. Comes down to individual moments.

If you’re honest with yourself if he’d have scored that do you think you’d have won La Liga?

P.s you won the last two games 4-1 and 7-3....

Replace Ronaldo with another player that season and we wouldnt have had the points we ended up with in the end.

Also, if you want to go down in details about specific situations, if Ronaldo doesnt score in the Clasicos, you would have won on H2H, making the Valencia pen meaningless, so...what now?

 

[KingLeo10]

Okay, fine, going that route, Messi 11/12 was a flop, i guess.

This is where your insane arguments leads us to.

It would match my argument if Messi missed a key penalty in the final games of LL with Barca being level with RM on points and ahead in H2H.

You leapt from here to the moon with your "logic". All I'm saying is that it's more plausible than not that CR7's pen miss v Valencia (with only 2 easy games remaining that you won with comedy scorelines) cost you guys the league and gave us the treble.

Cheers. And do brush up on that "logic".

 

[Morten]

It would match my argument if Messi missed a key penalty in the final games of LL with Barca being level with RM on points and ahead in H2H.

You leapt from here to the moon with your "logic". All I'm saying is that it's more plausible than not that CR7's pen miss v Valencia (with only 2 easy games remaining that you won with comedy scorelines) cost you guys the league and gave us the treble.

Cheers. And do brush up on that "logic".

Nope.

 

[Vilarrubi]

Replace Ronaldo with another player that season and we wouldnt have had the points we ended up with in the end.

Also, if you want to go down in details about specific situations, if Ronaldo doesnt score in the Clasicos, you would have won on H2H, making the Valencia pen meaningless, so...what now?

Lost me there.

Not dismissing what he did that season, he was unbelievable.

They were talking about key/important penalties missed, I believe penalty against Valencia under those circumstances was a massive miss. Bringing up what he did over full season is pretty irrelevant.

You didn’t answer my question anyway, if you won that game 3-2 do you think you’d have won La Liga? Or somehow lost or drawn the next two games which you won 4-1 and 7-3....

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I mean, if you want to blame the guy who scored 48 league goals for us losing the league, go ahead.

Its retarded logic though, and deep down you know.

uffff what a season it was from Ronaldo, 48 goals alone in la liga, he was the fox in the box

That was the season when Modric got injured right ? This season reminds me of 15/16 season of barca, both played one of their best football in the history and got suddenly much worse in the second half.

 

[BBZ8800]

Well, Muller and Van Basten aren't exactly chopped liver. So, while I can see them having 1 or 2 more CLs to match Messi over 15 years...there are other aspects to consider:

10 LL, 4 (or 3.5) CL, 700+ goals, 300+ assists, 120 CL goals (50 CL KO goals) is GOAT level, no two ways about it. Is he the undisputed GOAT (as in a level above other GOAT tier players) ? I don't think so. So, I don't see where I'm overestimating Messi's achievements.

Again, it is not that simple.
In the last 10-15 years:
1. Psg won like 10 titles in a row, it turned into a one horse race due to a difference between rich and small.
What do you think, who will score more goals: a CF from PSG from 70s, 90s or 2020?
2. Juve, the same. 10 titles in a row.
Who will score more? Current Cfs or a guy from 1972?
3. Bayern? The same.
Who will get more chances/shots and goals? A guy from 1972 or a guy from 2020?
4. Barca/Real. Remember the days when Deportivo, Valencia and similar teams were winning titles.
Can it happen today? The same about shots and goals.
Who had more shots against Huesca and Girona? Barca in 1972 and 1988 or Barca/Real in 2010, 2015 and 2020.

This sounds as an attack, but those things are facts.
A huge part of Messi's, Cr7's, Lewa's, Suarez's, Benz's goals are due to a current post-internet era where the gulf between rich and small league teams is insane and league competitions turned into 1 or 2 horse races and into statpadding contests against smaller teams (look: I am not attacking Messi BUT all scorers from a current era).

So, is it fair to compare Messi's 700 goals in an era where big teams are statpadding against bottom teams and comparing him with for example, Van Basten?
For example, in 1994, AC Milan won a title with 36 goals scored in 34 rounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993%E2%80%9394_Serie_A
Were thier Cfs and players SHIT or that was a different era, different style and the differences between big and small teams were smaller?
For example, Milan won Seria A with 36 goals in 34 matches.
Here is a list of all of their results in league in that season:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993%E2%80%9394_A.C._Milan_season
0:0 x8
1:0 x9
0:1 x2
1:1 x3
2:0 x5
2:1 x5
2:2 x2
2:3 x1

So, they didn't score more than 2 goals on ANY of 34 league matches.
Yet, Neymar, Suarez, Lewa alone scored more goals than the whole AC Milan from 1994 alone in recent seasons.
So, are Neymar, Suarez, Lewa better than the Ac Milan 1994 combined?

Then, if someone will reply: AC Milan from 1994 sucked.
Well, that crappy team who scored 36 goals in the whole league season won 4:0 against us in a CL final and we looked like little kids against them.
Top league scorers from Ac Milan in that season:
11 Massaro
5 Papin
4 Boban
3 Albertini
3 Simone
Lol

And then, how is it fair to compare goals from Van Basten, Muller or Batistuta with goals from Neymar, Suarez, Lewa, Messi, Cr7?
If you check stats, all of these 5 players from a recent era have way higher numbers than ANY striker in a football history.
And then, you need to ask yourself: are we blessed with 5 best strikers in a history OR: current numbers are inflated a lot due to a huge difference between big and small teams?
In that sense, I would look at Messi's and CR7s league goals with a pinch of salt.
If I would say: CL goals could show a better picture, guys will say: you hate Messi and you say that because CR7 is better in CL matches...

Catalinutz is mad at me for talking bad about Messi.
Why can't we enjoy our tiltes and results WITHOUT pushing this shitty: GOAT agenda?

Messi was awesome, thanks for everything, he brought tons of joy.
But about being a GOAT when you sum his whole career, league, CLs, NT teams, the answer is far from easy.

A few days ago, I wrote in Haalands topic: if he won't get injured during his career, he will match numbers from Messi and CR7.
And now I have to ask:
If Messi and CR7 are the two of the best ever, how come that even a 3rd guy will reach their numbers and that all of those 3 will live/play in the span of 15-20 years?
How come that not a single player from 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s or early 00s was able to reach the numbers of these 3 greats?

You only have 2 answers:
1. either 3 GOATs played in the span of 20 years
2. or: greatest players of a current era will have 2-3-4-5* times higher numbers of goals/league/CL titles than guys from 50s-00s due to reasons explained before:
1. the difference between small and big clubs is way larger
2. big clubs are winning leagues for 10 years in a row
3. big clubs are creating 15-20-30 shots per match against weak teams
4. refereeing is harsher today (penalties, red cards, VAR), attackers and big teams are protected and there is more red cards and penalties against smaller teams
5. there is way more matches per season, thus it is easier to score more goals
6. CL has 4 teams per season, and so all big clubs can play a CL every season, for 15 years in a row during player's careers
7. we have tons of newly invented cups like domestic supercups, European supercups, World club championship which make it easier to win tens of wtf newly invented titles

 

[KingLeo10]

Again, it is not that simple.
In the last 10-15 years:
1. Psg won like 10 titles in a row, it turned into a one horse race due to a difference between rich and small.
What do you think, who will score more goals: a CF from PSG from 70s, 90s or 2020?
2. Juve, the same. 10 titles in a row.
Who will score more? Current Cfs or a guy from 1972?
3. Bayern? The same.
Who will get more chances/shots and goals? A guy from 1972 or a guy from 2020?
4. Barca/Real. Remember the days when Deportivo, Valencia and similar teams were winning titles.
Can it happen today? The same about shots and goals.
Who had more shots against Huesca and Girona? Barca in 1972 and 1988 or Barca/Real in 2010, 2015 and 2020.

This sounds as an attack, but those things are facts.
A huge part of Messi's, Cr7's, Lewa's, Suarez's, Benz's goals are due to a current post-internet era where the gulf between rich and small league teams is insane and league competitions turned into 1 or 2 horse races and into statpadding contests against smaller teams (look: I am not attacking Messi BUT all scorers from a current era).

So, is it fair to compare Messi's 700 goals in an era where big teams are statpadding against bottom teams and comparing him with for example, Van Basten?
For example, in 1994, AC Milan won a title with 36 goals scored in 34 rounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993%E2%80%9394_Serie_A
Were thier Cfs and players SHIT or that was a different era, different style and the differences between big and small teams were smaller?
For example, Milan won Seria A with 36 goals in 34 matches.
Here is a list of all of their results in league in that season:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993%E2%80%9394_A.C._Milan_season
0:0 x8
1:0 x9
0:1 x2
1:1 x3
2:0 x5
2:1 x5
2:2 x2
2:3 x1

So, they didn't score more than 2 goals on ANY of 34 league matches.
Yet, Neymar, Suarez, Lewa alone scored more goals than the whole AC Milan from 1994 alone in recent seasons.
So, are Neymar, Suarez, Lewa better than the Ac Milan 1994 combined?

Then, if someone will reply: AC Milan from 1994 sucked.
Well, that crappy team who scored 36 goals in the whole league season won 4:0 against us in a CL final and we looked like little kids against them.
Top league scorers from Ac Milan in that season:
11 Massaro
5 Papin
4 Boban
3 Albertini
3 Simone
Lol

And then, how is it fair to compare goals from Van Basten, Muller or Batistuta with goals from Neymar, Suarez, Lewa, Messi, Cr7?
If you check stats, all of these 5 players from a recent era have way higher numbers than ANY striker in a football history.
And then, you need to ask yourself: are we blessed with 5 best strikers in a history OR: current numbers are inflated a lot due to a huge difference between big and small teams?
In that sense, I would look at Messi's and CR7s league goals with a pinch of salt.
If I would say: CL goals could show a better picture, guys will say: you hate Messi and you say that because CR7 is better in CL matches...

Catalinutz is mad at me for talking bad about Messi.
Why can't we enjoy our tiltes and results WITHOUT pushing this shitty: GOAT agenda?

Messi was awesome, thanks for everything, he brought tons of joy.
But about being a GOAT when you sum his whole career, league, CLs, NT teams, the answer is far from easy.

A few days ago, I wrote in Haalands topic: if he won't get injured during his career, he will match numbers from Messi and CR7.
And now I have to ask:
If Messi and CR7 are the two of the best ever, how come that even a 3rd guy will reach their numbers and that all of those 3 will live/play in the span of 15-20 years?
How come that not a single player from 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s or early 00s was able to reach the numbers of these 3 greats?

You only have 2 answers:
1. either 3 GOATs played in the span of 20 years
2. or: greatest players of a current era will have 2-3-4-5* times higher numbers of goals/league/CL titles than guys from 50s-00s due to reasons explained before:
1. the difference between small and big clubs is way larger
2. big clubs are winning leagues for 10 years in a row
3. big clubs are creating 15-20-30 shots per match against weak teams
4. refereeing is harsher today (penalties, red cards, VAR), attackers and big teams are protected and there is more red cards and penalties against smaller teams
5. there is way more matches per season, thus it is easier to score more goals
6. CL has 4 teams per season, and so all big clubs can play a CL every season, for 15 years in a row during player's careers
7. we have tons of newly invented cups like domestic supercups, European supercups, World club championship which make it easier to win tens of wtf newly invented titles

We were competing with CR7 and RM for the LLs. And AM for more than half of the years...all routine CL finalists and CL winners.

If you're really going to compare it to Ligue 1 and PSG, I have no interest in wasting time.

 

[MagIX]

Filippo Inzaghi has 2 CL trophies, Roberto Baggio has none. Overall - Inzaghi has more trophies. Does that make Inzaghi greater than Baggio? One of them was the finest Italian playmaker and player I've seen in my lifetime, the other one - beating offside traps and scoring tap in goals.

I agree.

Soccer is a team sport, therefore you can compare career to career, but it do not give the whole picture of a player.

Before Messi there were fantastic players: either they were TOP playmakers or they were TOP goal goalscorers.
Messi is 2 in 1 and ABSOLUTELY TOP in both.
Quality's player stats as goals, playmaking (game build up, assists, key/thourgh passes,....), MOTM, dribblings,
free kicks, goal quality... are UNIQUE, we are talking about something absolutely outstanding..
Honestly no needs of stats to see the genius, the best of his era, you simply need to have watched him playing by using a functioning brain.
And my god that's abosolutely doesn't mean that he is the perfect player (do I really have to write this??) he's not a leader,
goals ko matches, not a good header, and so on...
He's the goat ? for me Maradona was better.

 

[MagIX]

Haaland... yeah at the moment he's a goal machine.Stop.
At the moment I do not see any other quality/talent comparable to CR or Messi.

 

[Windhook]

I'm not into this GOAT thing, but Messi is the greatest of his generation. Different eras, different styles of football. Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, R9 (pre-1998 WC final) are all fantastic players. No matter the span, the years they were dominant. The excitement they brought to the game is what makes them great. Not the trophies, not the goals.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I'm not into this GOAT thing, but Messi is the greatest of his generation. Different eras, different styles of football. Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, R9 (pre-1998 WC final) are all fantastic players. No matter the span, the years they were dominant. The excitement they brought to the game is what makes them great. Not the trophies, not the goals.

Perfect statement.

 

[MagIX]

I'm not into this GOAT thing, but Messi is the greatest of his generation. Different eras, different styles of football. Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, R9 (pre-1998 WC final) are all fantastic players. No matter the span, the years they were dominant. The excitement they brought to the game is what makes them great. Not the trophies, not the goals.

Platinum post

 

[JohnN]

I see BBZ has Coutinho in his "do not right anything negative about list" while having the audacity to write fucking walls of text for leo messi.
Also, I am pretty sure they statement "only post If something negative to say or else dont post at all" fails to apply to Rakitic and EV.
So, if I had to characterize this posting style I would be forced to say: Biased, bitter and agenda driven.

 

[te amo barca]

BBZ lost a lot of coins today