Lionel Messi - v7

[BarcaOG]

CR is also almost 3 years older than Messi and it's kinda normal he has more goals , not to mention he's a box player rather than Messi who stays more around the midfield.

That's fair; hence why I didn't say 'less TOTAL goals than CR'. Messi might well overtake him in that department in the end. I am more interested in the kind of opposition against which these goals are scored; hence I weigh CL and especially CL KO goals more heavily.

Less NT goals than Messi ......CR is lucky in this department since most of his goals come against the likes of Luxembourg , Andorra , Feroe Island and teams as such. Imagine Messi in his goat years at a European team against those kind of teams.

I'll grant you this one. CONMEBOL is a very tough grouping; hardest in the world, probably. The one thing I will say is that Messi's NT teams have had more quality than CR's Portugal teams. At least on paper. But I'll concede that CR's hattricks against the Faroes etc. don't count as much. Fair point.

Yeah he has 2 international trophies while not even playing in the final and another friendly tournament which he sucked in the final. If VAR existed in the last 10 years , he would have 3 CL less.

This I am less convinced by. Messi would gladly take a NT title, I am sure, even if it meant having missed a final or something. Not exactly CR's fault that he was injured.

 

[BarcaOG]

Cata's list is an inside joke/ fun. Can't believe you are triggered by that. LMAO.

All I know is I don't make arguments where missing key PKs don't count against you if the team wins. That loses any credibility, whatsoever. Still laughing at that.

I'm not triggered by it; I am point out the fact that this grouping will make a ton of posts against anyone who disagrees with their view that Messi is faultless. It's kind of a mob mentality. Surely you can see that? The history of the Messi thread is full of occasional dissenters such as myself who are immediately jumped on and hounded by the Amigos. I'm simply pointing that out.

 

[KingLeo10]

I'm not triggered by it; I am point out the fact that this grouping will make a ton of posts against anyone who disagrees with their view that Messi is faultless. It's kind of a mob mentality. Surely you can see that? The history of the Messi thread is full of occasional dissenters such as myself who are immediately jumped on and hounded by the Amigos. I'm simply pointing that out.

Half the members in that @ criticize Messi all the time. Including me. And Richard.H if he's on there, which I believe he is.

You're fighting ghosts.

 

[BarcaOG]

[MENTION=1742]BarcaOG[/MENTION] to be fair we are in a barca forum. Even if your criticisms are legit, a few users will not be happy with it. I got a lot of users furious with my criticisms too, even though I love Messi and know our team would probably be in 6th-7th place if it wasnt for his magic. Also probably completely destroyed by PSG away too.


I think it's a good thing that users are criticizing Messi. It shows the incredibly high standard he is still held up to at age 33. Just think about how different arguments would be once Messi and CR7 are gone. Even Mbappe and Haaland are nowhere near as impressive as what those two put up on a day to day basis.

Yes, probably. You are right; this is on point in fact. Thanks for noting that.

 

[BarcaOG]

Half the members in that @ criticize Messi all the time. Including me. And Richard.H if he's on there, which I believe he is.

You're fighting ghosts.

I'm not, though. The CR stuff aside, my point all along has simply been that if we are going to say that Messi is the best in the world, then he should perform like he's the best in the world. Otherwise the label is meaningless. If you are happy to grant that Messi, in fact, is 34, and past his prime, and no longer the best, then I will relax my standards. I am simply pointing to the gap between what you claim--that he is the best--and the reality, which is that he has been involved in too many CL humiliations for that label to hold meaningfully.

We can (and do) debate whether those humiliations are Messi's fault (they are not) but what I think is silly is to have your cake and eat it too: you say he is the best but you will excuse any bad games/errors. I don't think it should work like that.

 

[Joan]

Criticism is fine. Pointless comparisons between players who have parted ways ages ago? BORING. We're literally dying here reading some of the posts in this thread. More cl semi final penalty misses, less cl wins in a random age interval, irrelevant criteria to make your favorite player look better. Ah, falling asleep already. Nobody cares. For real.

Show some original, pure hatred for Messi like some have been doing. Or ban yourself. Just please stop polluting the thread with this nonsensical charade.

The truth is.. barely anyone cares about the "facts" you talk about. Maybe Birdy. He's a staunch statistician. But yours might be boring even for him.

 

[KingLeo10]

Honestly, if I were to put up a stat that says: CR7 only won 2 CL in his prime of 20-30 years, the arbitrary selection of ages would be considered a full on clown show. But even this asinine comment would be better than the prime of 23 - 33 that BarcaOG served up. That's how idiotic that was.

 

[BarcaOG]

Honestly, if I were to put up a stat that says: CR7 only won 2 CL in his prime of 20-30 years, the arbitrary selection of ages would be considered a full on clown show. But even this asinine comment would be better than the prime of 23 - 33 that BarcaOG served up. That's how idiotic that was.

That's fine. It's still true, whatever the case may be with CR. Messi's prime is the least successful of any GOAT-level player: no NT titles despite several finals; a single CL; 5 humiliating CL exits in a row. I can't think of any GOAT-level player who has a worse record during their prime years.

 

[BarcaOG]

Criticism is fine. Pointless comparisons between players who have parted ways ages ago? BORING. We're literally dying here reading some of the posts in this thread. More cl semi final penalty misses, less cl wins in a random age interval, irrelevant criteria to make your favorite player look better. Ah, falling asleep already. Nobody cares. For real.

Show some original, pure hatred for Messi like some have been doing. Or ban yourself. Just please stop polluting the thread with this nonsensical charade.

The truth is.. barely anyone cares about the "facts" you talk about. Maybe Birdy. He's a staunch statistician. But yours might be boring even for him.

You are happy to list similarly 'pointless' facts in defence of Messi. So be consistent: either they count or not.

Also--it's not about whether you 'care'. That's the least interesting thing at stake. It's about whether the facts themselves are true. Whether they put you to sleep or make you jump in joy is irrelevant.

 

[KingLeo10]

That's fine. It's still true, whatever the case may be with CR. Messi's prime is the least successful of any GOAT-level player: no NT titles despite several finals; a single CL; 5 humiliating CL exits in a row. I can't think of any GOAT-level player who has a worse record during their prime years.

You are seriously lacking in thinking ability.

Messi's prime was the one where he won 4 consecutive Ballon D'Or and those two trebles. At most, you can extend that to 16/17...20-30 years of age. No one is in their prime in their 30s as a footballer. CR7's actual abilities were diminished by then but he won CLs because RM were super strong...like how Barca was early on in Messi's career.

 

[BarcaOG]

Honestly, if I were to put up a stat that says: CR7 only won 2 CL in his prime of 20-30 years, the arbitrary selection of ages would be considered a full on clown show. But even this asinine comment would be better than the prime of 23 - 33 that BarcaOG served up. That's how idiotic that was.

It's scarcely less idiotic than posting "Job done" after we were eliminated simply because Messi scored. I mean--so what? You're missing the bigger picture when you sign onto things like that.

 

[KingLeo10]

It's scarcely less idiotic than posting "Job done" after we were eliminated simply because Messi scored. I mean--so what? You're missing the bigger picture when you sign onto things like that.

Except Cata is like 1% serious and you're 100% serious.

 

[BarcaOG]

You are seriously lacking in thinking ability.

Messi's prime was the one where he won 4 consecutive Ballon D'Or and those two trebles. At most, you can extend that to 16/17...20-30 years of age. No one is in their prime in their 30s as a footballer. CR7's actual abilities were diminished by then but he won CLs because RM were super strong...like how Barca was early on in Messi's career.

No, it wasn't. Messi's prime was 2011-2016ish; with a return to top form in 2019. You can't shift his prime just to suit your narrative. Otherwise you are saying that Messi's career as a top footballer ended in 2015, which is absurd.

 

[BarcaOG]

Except Cata is like 1% serious and you're 100% serious.

I am serious. Club>player. Disagree? Set up a Messi forum.

 

[BarcaOG]

We went from Messi having 3.5 CL's in the morning to 1 CL now.