Lionel Messi - v7

Rory

Senior Member
De Bruyne probably up there too if we're dismissing other candidates based on teammates' failures. He's been very good in Euros despite playing injured.

Hardly dismissing them based on teammates failures. In fact explicitly said "out of ucl early (not his fault)" for Lewandowski. These things play a big part in ballon d'or. Kante not being dismissed, in fact he's there largely due to teammates success, so maybe I should cross him out?

Kane isn't going to win it due to not winning a trophy. This is a big deciding factor in the ballon d'or. I'm making my points based on knowing what the ballon d'or choice is about. De Bruyne fair shout but don't think he'll be looked at due to ucl final and euros exit.

Do you think any of those players above including De Bruyne have a larger claim to the ballon d'or this year so far?
 

Porque

Senior Member
How about any Italians.

Chiesa had a great Euro plus got the winner in the Coppa Italia final.

Seems more prolific than Jorginho plaudits.

Then there's Donnarumma who was MVP of the Euro, great in two shootouts and will now be in PSG.
 

El Gato

Villarato!
Hardly dismissing them based on teammates failures. In fact explicitly said "out of ucl early (not his fault)" for Lewandowski. These things play a big part in ballon d'or. Kante not being dismissed, in fact he's there largely due to teammates success, so maybe I should cross him out?

Kane isn't going to win it due to not winning a trophy. This is a big deciding factor in the ballon d'or. I'm making my points based on knowing what the ballon d'or choice is about. De Bruyne fair shout but don't think he'll be looked at due to ucl final and euros exit.

Do you think any of those players above including De Bruyne have a larger claim to the ballon d'or this year so far?

Than Messi? I'd argue KdB is a fair shout to be at the very least of equal weight to Messi.
Lewandowski I'd place slightly below the two, but wouldn't be mad if he got it in the end. Just to even have it since he got snubbed out last year.

I mean neither will be considered on reputation anyway. And teammates aren't really conditioned to involve them in every other move like they do Leo, so perception will be that 'they do less for their team', which sounds a bit unfair.
 

vegitot

Senior Member
How about any Italians.

Chiesa had a great Euro plus got the winner in the Coppa Italia final.

Seems more prolific than Jorginho plaudits.

Then there's Donnarumma who was MVP of the Euro, great in two shootouts and will now be in PSG.

Jorginho has UCL and Euro so he is above Chiesa. Donnaruma is great this Euro but he is no Neuer to compete in these individual awards.
 

CatalinR10

Senior Member
Can't believe people are talking about a guy who barelly has around 5 goals this year and no assists to be a Ballon d'or contender just because he was in a winning team.
 

Daniele

Member
Disclaimer:
I forgot that I am in a MessiFanboy forum more than a Barcelona forum.
I am just reminding again the fanboys here that I am not a fanboy.
No need to label 'contrarian' someone who is not joining your emotional knee-jerk parade



Nominally maybe,
but implicitly also on the 2020 calendar year,
it's the first time that both seasons are considered to reach a decision.

And given both seasons I don't think Messi should get another one.



I think you are mistaking individual performance for individual talent/capacity
If the criterion is the latter Messi should win it every year, and should have won it every year since 2008.
But the criterion is or should be the former.

To understand how flawed this logic is, same could be said about other 'best players of their era' in the past
What about Ronaldinho?
Ronaldinho was undeniably the most talented footballer before Messi.
Should he have won it every year before Messi appeared?
Even when he was fat and partying, just because he was better at kicking the ball than anybody else? Hell no



Good season is questionable.
If you look at calendar 2020, Messi had a poor 2020. After Valverde was dismissed his finishing deteriorated and from Aug to Dec 2020 we was ghostwalking on the pitch. calendar 2021 (until now), he rediscovered part of his former self, but nothing like his 2019 self (last time he won Ballon D Or)

Copa America is 7 games. I didn't watch it to know how good Messi was, but it's always ridiculous IMO to base an individual award on 7 or 8 games, instead of 50-60 games the whole season.


PS: Of course, problem is that Ballon D'Or has become an industry of diplomacy, and awards are based less on impartial judgment of the performance on all players, but on exercises of diplomacy.
Why is Ronaldo even in the candidates for 2021? What did he do in 2021 or even in 2020 to deserve to be there? Nothing.
He is just Ronaldo and "has" to be there.
Same thinking is employed for Messi, despite him doing much more than Rolando


I remember wrong or was this one of those users who said a few years ago that Messi was the evil of Barcelona and a ridiculous and finished player?
 

Birdy

Senior Member
Already asked, but where did you get the bold from? Ballon d'Ors are given for calendar years and there's no point talking about some other awards Messi might not deserve. There's no point because they don't exist. If there was an award for both seasons, Lewa would be my pick too. But sadly for the Pole, there isn't.





It's not questionable if we're talking about Ballon d'Or. Because then it refers to the second half of the season or the first half of 2021. International competitions taking place this year are the second hugely influential factor. With no obvious stand-out players in the Euros and Donnarumma being the man of the tournament, Copa will have some more weight. 7 games or not. It's not like there are many more meaningful matches in the CL, yet it usually carries the most points.

To sum it up: Messi had a revival at the beginning of this calendar year which is backed by stats. Believe he's even in the lead. Was he as good as before? No, but he didn't need to. He's not competing with himself. He also won his first international trophy, was the best and most influential player at the Copa. All it takes is a solid start of the season and there's no one close to him this year.

Didn't say I got it from an official statement.
The logic behind cancelling the 2020 award was the covid season and the cancelling of the Euros.
Hence the 2021 cannot only refer to calendar year 2021, as you leave a whole year unaccounted.

Then, what you write about calendar year/season is only on paper correct.
Because in practice these awards look at the whole season that finished the previous summer, and do not give much (or not at all) prominence to what happened the 3 first months of the new season before the award is given.
Messi's 18/19 season as a whole gave him the 2019 Ballon D'Or, not only the last 4 months, and likewise his first months of 19/20 were not important in deciding to give him the award.

I know Copas/Euros/World Cups are weighted heavily, but obviously I am questioning that.

Birdy it's not so much Messi has been at a phenomenal level it's that other players haven't been. Messi a domestic trophy for barca and then copa america too. Voted best player at copa, highest goals and highest assists. On top of that highest scorer in la liga and assist provider. It's a completely fair shout to say he deserves it when the next favourites are:

- Kane: good season with spurs but won nothing.
- Lewandowski: Lots of goals to win the league, out of ucl early (not his fault) and Euros.
- Kante: Had about 5 very good games all season and won UCL.

No one else really comes into the conversation. Out of those 4, Messi clearly has the edge in terms of accomplishments. He also gets a boost because he's Messi, that's just how it's going to be for him and Ronaldo until they retire.

That talk about who won something with his NT makes me laugh (not referring to you Rory in particular)
As if Poland could win Euros or WC.
This criterion is biased and partial to begin with, since NT trophies are won by major football powers, and only Spanish, Italian, German, French, Brazilian, Argentinian etc can be in the discussion.
Belgium's golden generation could not even win something. That means De Bruyne should never win Ballon D'Or?

There you see the irrationality and partiality when factoring in the NT trophies
 
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Birdy

Senior Member
I remember wrong or was this one of those users who said a few years ago that Messi was the evil of Barcelona and a ridiculous and finished player?

I remember wrong or this is one of the users that only posts on Messi thread, does not contribute anything to this forum unrelated to Messi, and is preaching fanboyism with 0 critical thinking and footballing judgment???
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
Didn't say I got it from an official statement.
The logic behind cancelling the 2020 award was the covid season and the cancelling of the Euros.
Hence the 2021 cannot only refer to calendar year 2021, as you leave a whole year unaccounted.

By this logic, if France Football were to suspend the Ballon D'Or for 5 years and pick it back up, the award in that first year back would account for 1 + the past 5 seasons?

Awards are given a year designation for a reason - this is Ballon D'Or 2021. Of all the arguments to make, this is downright the most disingenuous one.
 

soul24rage

Senior Member
Didn't say I got it from an official statement.
The logic behind cancelling the 2020 award was the covid season and the cancelling of the Euros.
Hence the 2021 cannot only refer to calendar year 2021, as you leave a whole year unaccounted.

Then, what you write about calendar year/season is only on paper correct.
Because in practice these awards look at the whole season that finished the previous summer, and do not give much (or not at all) prominence to what happened the 3 first months of the new season before the award is given.
Messi's 18/19 season as a whole gave him the 2019 Ballon D'Or, not only the last 4 months, and likewise his first months of 19/20 were not important in deciding to give him the award.

Then there is no argument. This is the Ballon D'or 2021, not the Ballon D'or 2020-2021. Everyone agrees that Lewandowski deserves the Ballon D'or 2020.

According to France Football, Messi is the favourite to win Ballon dor now.
https://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Art...es-qui-ont-permis-d-y-voir-plus-clair/1269859

Stop counting now.

To Birdy: The above link shows that France Football takes into account the winners in the 2020/2021 season which includes the major international tournaments and says nothing about the 2019/2020 season.
 
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Fati_Future_BallonDor

Well-known member
By this logic, if France Football were to suspend the Ballon D'Or for 5 years and pick it back up, the award in that first year back would account for 1 + the past 5 seasons?

Awards are given a year designation for a reason - this is Ballon D'Or 2021. Of all the arguments to make, this is downright the most disingenuous one.

Kingleo uses the word logic ? :lol: You should be the last one who who gets upset about the logic of other people's arguments ;)
 

SmilerBam

Well-known member
How about any Italians.

Chiesa had a great Euro plus got the winner in the Coppa Italia final.

Seems more prolific than Jorginho plaudits.

Then there's Donnarumma who was MVP of the Euro, great in two shootouts and will now be in PSG.

Yeah,let's give the Ballon D'Or to people who score 8 goals per season.
 

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