Lionel Messi - v7

[gasgas]

BBZ's nightmare

.............de jong
.....Pjanic.......puig
Adama..messi..dembele

 

[Sterlingfan2000]

Oh my God next season is gonna be fun. Amigos running riot on the bench , Suarez is already losing his mind when we sub him in the last 3 minutes.

Popcorn is ready

 

[Richard.H]

He is already above CR7. What are you talking about???

I'm talking more from a neutral fan/media perspective. Everyone here watches Barca games weekly and they can see he's better, but argument from media/neutral fan perspective will always go back to: titles, clutch moments, personal accolades. If you mention that CR7 had an amazing team that led him to 4 CL's, the counter argument will always be, "Well Messi had Xavi and Iniesta, why did they win only three CL's?" if you say national team is shit, people will claim "Portugal is not better/maybe even worse than Argentina", or "Messi was in three finals with Argentina, why didn't he do anything? CR7 has always been a strong leader for Portugal."

Look I'm a huge Messi fan, but I'm being real. Everyone including me knows he's better regardless of how many more titles CR7 can win. I just want history to be kind to Messi.

 

[Messigician]

Little dictator getting all he wants so far xx

"Dw GOAT we are lining up Neymar as we speak I rather bankrupt the club than go down as the president who made Messi leave"
-Barto probably.

 

[KingLeo10]

I'm talking more from a neutral fan/media perspective. Everyone here watches Barca games weekly and they can see he's better, but argument from media/neutral fan perspective will always go back to: titles, clutch moments, personal accolades. If you mention that CR7 had an amazing team that led him to 4 CL's, the counter argument will always be, "Well Messi had Xavi and Iniesta, why did they win only three CL's?" if you say national team is shit, people will claim "Portugal is not better/maybe even worse than Argentina", or "Messi was in three finals with Argentina, why didn't he do anything? CR7 has always been a strong leader for Portugal."

Look I'm a huge Messi fan, but I'm being real. Everyone including me knows he's better regardless of how many more titles CR7 can win. I just want history to be kind to Messi.

Here's Messi's resume:

10 La Liga Titles (These are valuable because they're all against RM/AM and 6 of them were against CR7 in his 9 years at RM)
3.5 CL (He needs to do more work here. 1 more CL somehow)
6 time Ballon D'Or (Won't be broken)
6 time European golden boot (Won't be broken)

Messi is suffering from the Federer syndrome lately. He was by and far the best in his heyday (Pep's era with one last hurrah in 14/15) similar to how Fed was clowning everyone from 03-07. But after that, Fed has like a 33% win rate in finals. His level is good enough to dispatch all but Novak and Nadal with ease but against those two, he comes out losing quite often (especially Novak). Similarly, Messi can still lead us past a Napoli, Chelsea, Man United right now but his level isn't good enough to beat Pool (although he almost did) and Bayern (he got destroyed here) by himself.

Unless Messi has serious help, I can't see him winning another big trophy like CL or a Copa America. Forget WC.

Here's CR7's resume:

7 league titles (but honestly these last 2 with Juve mean fuck all. Messi is much better here, H2H)
5 CL (very impressive. He's currently the greatest player to have played this competition. This is one area where he beats Messi. Ironically, the CL H2H is heavily in Messi's favor, though).
5 Ballon D'Or
5 Golden shoe

I think if Juve continue getting bounced in the R of 16 (likely with Pirlo and dinosaur squad), his perception in CL will also come down.

I'm of the opinion that both Messi and CR7 benefited a lot from all time great teammates. In reality, they're not that much better than legends of the past like R9, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Romario or Maradona. They were just much more professional/driven for a longer span (15 years) than those other.

 

[soul24rage]

Here's Messi's resume:

10 La Liga Titles (These are valuable because they're all against RM/AM and 6 of them were against CR7 in his 9 years at RM)
3.5 CL (He needs to do more work here. 1 more CL somehow)
6 time Ballon D'Or (Won't be broken)
6 time European golden boot (Won't be broken)

Messi is suffering from the Federer syndrome lately. He was by and far the best in his heyday (Pep's era with one last hurrah in 14/15) similar to how Fed was clowning everyone from 03-07. But after that, Fed has like a 33% win rate in finals. His level is good enough to dispatch all but Novak and Nadal with ease but against those two, he comes out losing quite often (especially Novak). Similarly, Messi can still lead us past a Napoli, Chelsea, Man United right now but his level isn't good enough to beat Pool (although he almost did) and Bayern (he got destroyed here) by himself.

Unless Messi has serious help, I can't see him winning another big trophy like CL or a Copa America. Forget WC.

Here's CR7's resume:

7 league titles (but honestly these last 2 with Juve mean fuck all. Messi is much better here, H2H)
5 CL (very impressive. He's currently the greatest player to have played this competition. This is one area where he beats Messi. Ironically, the CL H2H is heavily in Messi's favor, though).
5 Ballon D'Or
5 Golden shoe

I think if Juve continue getting bounced in the R of 16 (likely with Pirlo and dinosaur squad), his perception in CL will also come down.

I'm of the opinion that both Messi and CR7 benefited a lot from all time great teammates. In reality, they're not that much better than legends of the past like R9, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Romario or Maradona. They were just much more professional/driven for a longer span (15 years) than those other.

I wouldn't rule him out of winning the Copa America just yet.
Argentina is building a good team with some interesting players.
Most of the core is established and just needs to peg in the holes imo.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I wouldn't rule him out of winning the Copa America just yet.
Argentina is building a good team with some interesting players.
Most of the core is established and just needs to peg in the holes imo.

I have the feeling he will win the Copa 2021 in Argentinia. The team looks strong and they were better than Brazil 2019 in Copa even though they lost.

 

[KingLeo10]

I wouldn't rule him out of winning the Copa America just yet.
Argentina is building a good team with some interesting players.
Most of the core is established and just needs to peg in the holes imo.

If he wins the Copa, he will cement himself as top 3 all time. He already is IMO but these CL humiliations aren't doing him any favors. A couple more of those and they'll outweigh some of the legendary performances he's put forth.

I'm said many times here I'm a Messi fan but I value Barcelona success before him. In an ideal world with an amigo less squad, it would be a good end to his Barca story to go off on a title. But if he doesn't wisen up and start managing himself better (being subbed out, resting, playing more tactically), we need to move on from him. It would be a shame to root against him (in relation to Barcelona) if he goes to a place like City, but hey, I managed to do it for Pep.

 

[Batistuta9]

I have the feeling he will win the Copa 2021 in Argentinia. The team looks strong and they were better than Brazil 2019 in Copa even though they lost.

Sometimes you just need a bit of luck and things to go your way. If he had that at international level, he could have easily been a world cup winner and multiple Copa America winner today. It's not like they weren't close, they lost the WC final in extra time and the copas on penalties.

 

[Tackle]

If he wins the Copa, he will cement himself as top 3 all time. He already is IMO but these CL humiliations aren't doing him any favors. A couple more of those and they'll outweigh some of the legendary performances he's put forth.

I'm said many times here I'm a Messi fan but I value Barcelona success before him. In an ideal world with an amigo less squad, it would be a good end to his Barca story to go off on a title. But if he doesn't wisen up and start managing himself better (being subbed out, resting, playing more tactically), we need to move on from him. It would be a shame to root against him (in relation to Barcelona) if he goes to a place like City, but hey, I managed to do it for Pep.

Needs a CL. Copa is a meme.

 

[soul24rage]

If he wins the Copa, he will cement himself as top 3 all time. He already is IMO but these CL humiliations aren't doing him any favors. A couple more of those and they'll outweigh some of the legendary performances he's put forth.

I'm said many times here I'm a Messi fan but I value Barcelona success before him. In an ideal world with an amigo less squad, it would be a good end to his Barca story to go off on a title. But if he doesn't wisen up and start managing himself better (being subbed out, resting, playing more tactically), we need to move on from him. It would be a shame to root against him (in relation to Barcelona) if he goes to a place like City, but hey, I managed to do it for Pep.

Agree with you on every point.

 

[KingLeo10]

Needs a CL. Copa is a meme.

He already has enough CL, in a way. It's just CR7 won 5 so there's the perception he needs 1 more. The Copa is for the international trophy brigade.

Of course I know the CL is a much higher standard than Copa and the WC these days. The Bayern we faced would have folded that Croatia team in half and even beaten France handily.

 

[KingLeo10]

Also, all time greats and European cup/CL trophy counts:

Maldini - 5
CR7 - 5
Di Stefano - 5
Messi - 4 (3.5 really but everyone says Pele won 3 WCs when he didn't even do anything in 1962)
Xavi - 4 (3 in a way)
Iniesta - 4
Modric - 4
Cruyff - 3
Beckenbauer - 3
Gerd Muller - 3
Van Basten - 2
Eusebio - 2
Platini - 1
Zidane - 1
Best - 1
R10 - 1
R9 - 0
Romario - 0
Maradona - 0


Even guys like Henry, Robben, Suarez have 1.
Guys like Lewa 0 (although it might be 1 soon). CL is hard to win.

 

[Horatio]

Zlatan - 0

 

[KingLeo10]

Zlatan - 0

Doesn't make the cut as an all time great.