Lionel Messi - v7

[BarcaOG]

Ronaldo only has 1 job, score goals. If all Messi had to do was finish chances created by his teammates then we would have 6 or 7 Champions Leagues. Ronaldo's job is much easier to do which is why Messi gets a lot more recognition from the football world because they know how impressive it is to be the best goalscorer and the most creative player at the same time.

ifs and buts are not arguments. what if brazilian ronaldo didnt get injured? what if Ronaldinho behaved like a professional? blah blah blah.

all we have is what has actually happened. stop fantasizing and look at the facts. against atletico, liverpool, roma, and bayern, messi did not demonstrate anything special. far from it.

of these sides, CR on the other hand knocked out bayern twice and atletico multiple times.

what if it was the other way around? what if CR's sides were humiliated in the CL year after year? we would all RIGHTLY call him out for failing to deliver. but apparently messi's sides can get utterly dismantled yet hes somehow still a better CL player than someone who's won the CL more, has more CL goals, more knockout goals, and whose teams in the CL have NEVER been humiliated like messis.

explain that to me

 

[BarcaOG]

I've come to the conclusion that some of this "fanbase" have become sadomasochists.

"Humiliation" is like half the verbiage I see around here.

We get it. Barca have been terrible in the CL some years. Messi terrible in this year's elimination and some eliminations before that. But "lol humiliations" without looking at any nuance or structural issues outside of Messi and even the team at large is just baffling.

0-3 to roma after a 4-1 lead
0-4 to liverpool after a 3-0 lead
0-3 to juventus, ok, not a great result but not really a humiliation, so ill give you that
8-2 to bayern SURELY a humiliation

explain to me in what universe these dont count as humiliations? when Madrid was knocked out by ajax last year we all loled hard here and discussed how they were outplayed and soundly beaten. yet that scoreline was not anywhere close to what barca has allowed in the last 4 seasons. please explain to me how a club of barcas stature has NOT been humiliated in the last CL seasons? losing by 1-0 or 2-0/2-1 is okay. letting sizeable leads slip away in collapses is not. its a humiliation

 

[Judoman]

Having Guardiola for 4 years is not the same as having SAF for 6, Mou for 3, Ancelotti for 2, and ZZ for 3. It's not THE DECISIVE factor in the grand scheme of things but it's funny people just sweep that aside and cartwheel to "but but humiliations" as their default setting.

Yeah it's not the decisive factor but it is a major one. Than enters Bartomeu and the rest of the gang with their awesome collection of stupid purchases..

 

[KingLeo10]

ifs and buts are not arguments. what if brazilian ronaldo didnt get injured? what if Ronaldinho behaved like a professional? blah blah blah.

all we have is what has actually happened. stop fantasizing and look at the facts. against atletico, liverpool, roma, and bayern, messi did not demonstrate anything special. far from it.

of these sides, CR on the other hand knocked out bayern twice and atletico multiple times.

what if it was the other way around? what if CR's sides were humiliated in the CL year after year? we would all RIGHTLY call him out for failing to deliver. but apparently messi's sides can get utterly dismantled yet hes somehow still a better CL player than someone who's won the CL more, has more CL goals, more knockout goals, and whose teams in the CL have NEVER been humiliated like messis.

explain that to me

Messi's KO'ed Bayern twice.

He scored 2 against a better Liverpool than the one CR7 faced in the final and scored 0.

Messi didn't score v AM while CR7 did and beat them.

Messi didn't score v Roma but CR7 has been KO'ed 2 times by Lyon in his career.

Keep cherrypicking and keep being exposed.

 

[ebc_99]

ifs and buts are not arguments. what if brazilian ronaldo didnt get injured? what if Ronaldinho behaved like a professional? blah blah blah.

all we have is what has actually happened. stop fantasizing and look at the facts. against atletico, liverpool, roma, and bayern, messi did not demonstrate anything special. far from it.

of these sides, CR on the other hand knocked out bayern twice and atletico multiple times.

what if it was the other way around? what if CR's sides were humiliated in the CL year after year? we would all RIGHTLY call him out for failing to deliver. but apparently messi's sides can get utterly dismantled yet hes somehow still a better CL player than someone who's won the CL more, has more CL goals, more knockout goals, and whose teams in the CL have NEVER been humiliated like messis.

explain that to me

You don't have an argument either, you are comparing individuals in a team sport without taking into consideration their teammates, managers and the role they play in the team. Messi's job is much more difficult and he has had to do it with much worse managers at the helm. The managers job is the most important at a football club and Ronaldo has had a huge advantage in this department.

And Ronaldo didn't knock Bayern or Atleti out, Real Madrid did. Ronaldo played his part which was to score goals from opportunities created by his teammates, Messi has to create and score the goals which is a far more difficult task.

 

[Tackle]

You would think that, being an EV fan.

We have been nowhere close to a powerhouse since 15/16.

This discussion has nothing to do with EV.

Don't need to be a "powerhouse" to win, just the right draws and luck. We have been a 90 point La Liga team until this season. That level is enough to win the CL in any year under the right circumstances.

Few decent Messi performances in those crucial QF matches could have tipped one of those competitions to us. Last year when he played great in the QF for a change we almost went on to win the entire thing.

 

[KingLeo10]

This discussion has nothing to do with EV.

Don't need to be a "powerhouse" to win, just the right draws and luck. We have been a 90 point La Liga team until this season. That level is enough to win the CL in any year under the right circumstances.

Few decent Messi performances in those crucial QF matches could have tipped one of those competitions to us. Last year when he played great in the QF for a change we almost went on to win the entire thing.

You think the tier of manager is irrelevant to a CL win? Bayern under the exact squad with Kovac did fuck all and now they haven't lost a match since Dec 2019.

And you say all of this to basically come to the same conclusion as me...that we would have possibly 1 more CL with a better effort from Messi v Roma and AM.

 

[Batistuta9]

ifs and buts are not arguments. what if brazilian ronaldo didnt get injured? what if Ronaldinho behaved like a professional? blah blah blah.

all we have is what has actually happened. stop fantasizing and look at the facts. against atletico, liverpool, roma, and bayern, messi did not demonstrate anything special. far from it.

of these sides, CR on the other hand knocked out bayern twice and atletico multiple times.

what if it was the other way around? what if CR's sides were humiliated in the CL year after year? we would all RIGHTLY call him out for failing to deliver. but apparently messi's sides can get utterly dismantled yet hes somehow still a better CL player than someone who's won the CL more, has more CL goals, more knockout goals, and whose teams in the CL have NEVER been humiliated like messis.

explain that to me

Must be killing you that the majority of football fans around the world rate Messi above CR7 🤣

 

[DonAK]

Yeah i mentioned this but looks like it's not an issue

Yeah. It's not like Real Madrid and CR were doing amazing with the likes of Benitez as their manager. Valverde and Setien have a worse resume than Benitez too

 

[KingLeo10]

My problem is this clown BarcaOG compares Messi and CR7 by who they KO'ed i.e. AM and Bayern

But when I bring up that Messi is 2-1 v CR7 Head to Head (FFS) in CL final and 2 CL Semis...that's irrelevant.

I've never seen a bigger joker than this guy. Can't have it both ways dawg.

 

[malvolio]

I've come to the conclusion that some of this "fanbase" have become sadomasochists.

"Humiliation" is like half the verbiage I see around here.

We get it. Barca have been terrible in the CL some years. Messi terrible in this year's elimination and some eliminations before that. But "lol humiliations" without looking at any nuance or structural issues outside of Messi and even the team at large is just baffling.

Not to mention the fact that we have been the best club of the past decade, which never gets mentioned. CL humiliations and social media bragging rights is all the talk these days.
Forget about the fact we dominated the league. What matters is that CR didn't give a fuck about it and played for the CL KOs.

 

[BarcaOG]

You don't have an argument either, you are comparing individuals in a team sport without taking into consideration their teammates, managers and the role they play in the team. Messi's job is much more difficult and he has had to do it with much worse managers at the helm. The managers job is the most important at a football club and Ronaldo has had a huge advantage in this department.

And Ronaldo didn't knock Bayern or Atleti out, Real Madrid did. Ronaldo played his part which was to score goals from opportunities created by his teammates, Messi has to create and score the goals which is a far more difficult task.

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool so messi and ronaldo's contributions or lack there of dont matter? whichever way you look at that, its bs. both CR and messi have had good teams behind them, so that evens out. ill concede CR had had better managers or at least managers more suited to his style. both messi and CR are the main attacking threats of their team. messi is definitely more creative but at the end of the day both are their teams' main forwards.

ronaldo vs bayern/atletic on one hand vs messi vs bayern/atletic on the other isnt even worth going over. with the exceptions of 09 (that was a crappy bayern team but w.e) and 15 (in which leo was absolutely fantastic) CR has been way more effective against bayern. i wont even bother with atletico. ronaldo has knocked atlei for both real and juve and always scores against them. messis CL record against atleti on the other hand is abysmal.

the idea that you cant compare players because theyre part of a team is absurd.

 

[BarcaOG]

My problem is this clown BarcaOG compares Messi and CR7 by who they KO'ed i.e. AM and Bayern

But when I bring up that Messi is 2-1 v CR7 Head to Head (FFS) in CL final and 2 CL Semis...that's irrelevant.

I've never seen a bigger joker than this guy. Can't have it both ways dawg.

I'll happily concede that Messi has a better H2H record in the CL against CR. but because the CL doesnt pair them up every year that isnt the only metric we should use. neither should we use it to discredit all other metrics. surely, their record against top european opposition matters too, because that record often decides whether they helped their team reach a CL final and win it.

again, thomas muller has a better H2H against messi for both germany and bayern. no one would argue that because of that muller is somehow better or more influential for his team than messi. so why would that apply for CR and messi, ignoring all the other metrics?

 

[KingLeo10]

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool so messi and ronaldo's contributions or lack there of dont matter? whichever way you look at that, its bs. both CR and messi have had good teams behind them, so that evens out. ill concede CR had had better managers or at least managers more suited to his style. both messi and CR are the main attacking threats of their team. messi is definitely more creative but at the end of the day both are their teams' main forwards.

ronaldo vs bayern/atletic on one hand vs messi vs bayern/atletic on the other isnt even worth going over. with the exceptions of 09 (that was a crappy bayern team but w.e) and 15 (in which leo was absolutely fantastic) CR has been way more effective against bayern. i wont even bother with atletico. ronaldo has knocked atlei for both real and juve and always scores against them. messis CL record against atleti on the other hand is abysmal.

the idea that you cant compare players because theyre part of a team is absurd.

CR7 has scored 0 goals against Barca in 5 CL games. He even missed a penalty. Mental choker, going by your logic!

Can you explain why? And yes, they all happened when he was a Ballon d'Or level.

Could it be the strength of the other team matters, you absolute muppet.

 

[malvolio]

Aren't Barcelona the club with most semifinals played, since Messi burst into the scene?