Lionel "The Greatest of All Time" Messi V2

[KingLeo10]

Fati the donkey getting his daily beat down? Check

GOAT doing GOAT things? Check

 

[Horatio]

damn that was low fati.

 

[Maradona37]

2nd greatest player of all time

Not overrated, most people dont put him in top 5 anymore which means he's became more of an underrated player actually

Most people with credibility know Messi-Maradona-Pele are the holy trinity. It's generally only the gen Z kids or oddities who think Pele isn't there or that C Ronaldo is in the top 2 and Pele not in top five, etc. You get decent lads like Horatio who might not have him top three but it's rare that someone with decent knowledge won't have him there.

 

[Maradona37]

Most of Brazil's legendary players of the time actually played in South America back then, along with many other technically gifted monsters. It's really questionable whether European football was even stronger at the time. Hence, no questions over why he didn't play in Europe.

Friendlies had the same relevance in the sense they were taken seriously. Mostly because football back then was not just about trophies or competition. It was more about the beauty of game itself. And considering Pele was the most famous and the best footballer at the time by a margin, having him come to play against you meant big thing for any European club. Those matches usually had huge attendances because everybody wanted to watch Pele. And it was, of course, expected from the team to give its best to win against Pele. As a show of pride, more than as a success in terms of competition.

So, contrary to what most people think - Pele didnt have europeans open their legs against him in those friendlies. Also, it was not C teams that were playing in friendlies like today but best 11. So, essentially, even though people mostly overlook his goals in those friendlies that certainly shouldn't be the case. Everbody took those matches seriously.

Tremendous post.

 

[Maradona37]

It's weird because if you compare Pele to the rest of his era he's easily the best, relatively speaking. He was probably a couple of levels above the others from his time. A kind of dominance that you won't see today.

If you put prime Pele in today's football he'd most likely be pretty average. If you put Messi in that era it would probably be men v kids.

Now if you have teenager Pele reborn in modern football, and training like they do today, it will be a whole different question. Albeit a question that cannot be answered.

All in all to simplify it, in reality you are compared to the players you face. Pele obviously was incredibly talented but I've seen the WC games where 5 opponents are walking in defence as if they are Messi.

Put prime Pele and prime Messi side by side and there's only one winner.

Another tremendous post.

Obviously the idea is that players of the past are given equal footing with players of now in medical advancement, nutrition etc. Then their natural talent does the talking.

 

[jamrock]

Comparing players for different era is a fools errand, because all you do is just end up saying a bunch of word salad, like a few post I've seen lol.

Just keep them in the era and look at their accomplishments.

Pele "born" today, would very much be Messi's equal, because you can't teach certain level of talent, you are just touched by the hand of whomever God you worship with it.

I was came across a game of de Stefano the other day, and you can just see he's just naturally super talented, if he was born today he would be just as talented, not many born over the course of history has that level of talent.

Pele, maradona, Messi.

That's how the top 3 really is, which each kinda just choosing their favourite.

 

[Maradona37]

Comparing players for different era is a fools errand, because all you do is just end up saying a bunch of word salad, like a few post I've seen lol.

Just keep them in the era and look at their accomplishments.

Pele "born" today, would very much be Messi's equal, because you can't teach certain level of talent, you are just touched by the hand of whomever God you worship with it.

I was came across a game of de Stefano the other day, and you can just see he's just naturally super talented, if he was born today he would be just as talented, not many born over the course of history has that level of talent.

Pele, maradona, Messi.

That's how the top 3 really is, which each kinda just choosing their favourite.

Yeah indeed. Talent goes a long way. Sometimes I feel people go overboard with the 'everything is harder now' spiel. Some of the defending now is diabolical yet people talk like we are living in the era of defensive masterclasses.

Like you say, they'd be top players in whatever era. They're naturally gifted. But it's hard to choose across eras.
The three you name are the top three, all things considered.

 

[Gnidrologist]

There is a limit to how close wall can be to wall. But not how far.

Maybe timing of jump has improved. Maybe height of jump has improved. Placement of tallest players. Angle of the wall. Positioning of keeper. Reaction time of keeper. Keepers tend to be more athletic than before.

Then I hear you ask: what do some factors have to do with player not even shooting on target. Player knows has to be more precise on hitting ball and with proper strength to stand chance at scoring.

That's lot of assumptions without concrete evidence.

 

[KingLeo10]

GOATs are GOATs.

The main criteria is eye test (relative to peers) and performance and trophies in the biggest stages.

Pele had some clownish elements over the years like counting his friendly goals to push his tally up to 1300 or something, but look what his peers thought of him. Beckenbauer thought he was THE best and a cut above the rest.

Look what Platini, Maldini etc. thought of the great Diego Maradona.

Messi we all know.

 

[Horatio]

Yeah indeed. Talent goes a long way. Sometimes I feel people go overboard with the 'everything is harder now' spiel. Some of the defending now is diabolical yet people talk like we are living in the era of defensive masterclasses.

Like you say, they'd be top players in whatever era. They're naturally gifted. But it's hard to choose across eras.
The three you name are the top three, all things considered.

Tbf diabolical defending is what I see every time I look up footage of Pele to get an impression. The game in many ways was way more rudimentary 60-50 years ago. Which makes all the sense in the world imo.

One of the best of all time for sure. But always believe some romanticism is also at play.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

GOATs are GOATs.

The main criteria is eye test (relative to peers) and performance and trophies in the biggest stages.

Pele had some clownish elements over the years like counting his friendly goals to push his tally up to 1300 or something, but look what his peers thought of him. Beckenbauer thought he was THE best and a cut above the rest.

Look what Platini, Maldini etc. thought of the great Diego Maradona.

Messi we all know.

Good post dude, Pele used his training goals when he pushed to 1300 🤣 time for Siunaldo to become the first player who reaches 1000 goals and finish the GOAT-discussion...⚽️⚽️⚽️

 

[Maradona37]

Tbf diabolical defending is what I see every time I look up footage of Pele to get an impression. The game in many ways was way more rudimentary 60-50 years ago. Which makes all the sense in the world imo.

One of the best of all time for sure. But always believe some romanticism is also at play.

Fair enough but you're looking through a modern lens. Tbh just because players are fitter now doesn't mean they're better or smarter. I see loads of clownish defending now too. No denying there was poor defending back then too.

The strongest defensive league was Serie A of the 80s. Modern football lovers will seriously tell us to our face that Pique, Varane, Van Dijk and Sergio fucking Ramos are better than Maldini, Baresi, Sammer, Nesta, Scirea etc because they played in a 'more advanced' era and won more trophies. It's utter bollocks.

You talk about romanticism, but you overlook just how advanced Pele was in his time. Like Jamrock says, talent is talent in any era. Fitness gets better but football isn't a fully quantitative sport like the 100m, that you can measure with cold hard stats and time. Football is also about eye test and obviously a George Best born in the 40s is infinitely more talented than a Jesse Lingard playing in the 2010s.

 

[Don Juan Laporta Estruch]

I will never forget Lineker's story about Maradona when they met up for a World XI game. Lineker and Platini were watching Maradona doing keepy uppys. But he wasn't doing them like me, you and everyone else where you flick the ball inches off the boot.

He was booting the ball 30 metres in the air and keeping it up, one touch, that way !!!!! Platini turned to Lineker and said " This guy is not human".

Now imagine being so fucking good that you are doing training with the best players in the world and they are looking at you thinking " How the fuck did he do that? ". And we are taking about Platini, arguably the best European Footballer of all time and legitimately Top 10 footballer ever.

There is another video of Maradona where he lined 6 balls, 25 yards out from goal on a soggy mud ridden pitch. He was trying to hit the post with ever shot. He did not even know he was being filmed so it was a one take thing.


He managed to hit the post 5 times out of 6. Fucking incredible.

I think Messi is the GOAT by a fair distance, but if I had the choice to watch any player train for the day, it would be Diego all the way.

 

[MagIX]

Top 3 now.

But different eras...until the late 70s, they played with leather balls, which weren’t perfectly spherical, tended to deform during the game, and weren’t waterproof! Then came the Telstar ball (more spherical, with more uniform stitching and smoother, larger panels that allowed for much more precise spin effects), and from leather to synthetic materials, and so on... improving over time (Tango, Fevernova), allowing shots with increasingly extreme effects... until the Jabulani (WC 2010), which flew all over the place (Buffon and Casillas called it a beach ball). The problem was later fixed.
Juninho started a new era of how to take free kicks (then copied or with variations) thanks to modern balls, impossible to achieve with older ones.

 

[Maradona37]

Anyway good discussion with good points, on both sides of the debate