Luis Enrique

[StarLord]

If we take that logic seriously than Pep isn't even good coach. Mediocrity at best. Barca that won 2009/2011 CL was like several magnitudes better than Mou's Porto and Inter if we compare player wise. That team is arguably one of the if not THE best squad this sport ever seen, comparable to 1970s Brazil. Now Pep is a coach of simlarily great team so his success in domestic league and how far he goes in CL doesn't say anything good about Pep. Those players can win matches all by their own, rite? Lucho is already better than him, because he is getting better results with far lesser squad than Pep ever had.


He won CL with shitty team playing bad football. Bad coach, mhm.
According to StarLord, Real couldn't win much titles under him, because there was Barca with superior players than Real. Nothing to do with Guardiola, who outmatched him.

And what about 2012 Barca that couldn't get past mediocre, aging Chelsea team coached by fucking Di Mateo? top kek

Ridiculous logical fallacies fueled by blind biases on this forum never cease to amaze.

Again, you seem to believe that just because I am a Barca fan, I have some kind of fetish for Pep. I do not. I like the guy, but do I think he was the main reason for our success back in the day? NO! That is precisely my point all along! But if we apply your logic, namely a logic that whenever a Mou team wins is down to Mou himself, then it would follow that when a Pep team wins, it is again down to the manager, Pep.

My point all along is that neither Pep nor Mou are as important to the game as most fans and the histrionic media made them out to be. Their role is secondary at best. Secondary at best!

This discussion over which manager has won the most is juvenile to me! I only enter it, so as to point out its inherently flawed logic. There are many factors involved in determining football outcomes, and it is almost impossible for us to quantify them, but my wager is this:

a) Quality of players

b) Level of fitness - Ultra important in CL knockout games when teams need to go at 110%. The team should be fresh in these games. That is why Inter smashed us in the San Siro in 2010. That is why we couldn't beat 10-man Chelsea in 2012. Had nightmare run of games, El Clasicos in between, bus rides, etc...

c) Blind, stupid luck.

d) Manager/tactics.

 

[BBZ8800]

You completely fail to see my point.

Nowhere have I said that Pep is better than Jose. But he sure as hell has a better track record. Oh and Pep is still in the CL (for as much as I want Bayern to be eliminated tonight, I don't see that happening) So, how does that apply to Pep who has as many CLs as Mou but in far fewer years? And still has a good chance for a 3rd.

With Messi, everything from this era has to be valued with some caution.

Would Barca won any CLs since 2006 if we didn't have Messi?
Hard to tell.

Is Pep that good or Messi helped him a lot?
Would Pep have won any CL if Messi hasn't existed?

When Pep will win CL with some other club, without Messi in his team, then we can evaluate his work.

Mou at least won the CL with 2 different clubs till now.
And he will maybe win it once more in the future with some 3rd team.

Name one more "Simeone case" in the last 10 years or.

Valencia 2000
Valencia 2001
Bayer Leverkusen 2002
Porto 2004
Monaco 2004
Borussia 2013
Atletico 2014

About Simeone, don't rush with him.
He is awesome, but let's see how far will Atletico push this Season.
And whether they will be a one-Season wonder, or they will become a European powerhouse.

Imo, they will be ok team, but they won't repeat 2014 that soon.

 

[StarLord]

You can say what you want about Mou but he won the CL with Porto and Inter.
Once can be a coincedence but when you twice take an underdog to the finish you deserve a lot of respect.

Back in 2004, European football was very different. The financial gap between teams like Monaco, Porto and Deportivo with AC Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona, United etc was not as great as it is today. Nowhere near to be precise.

That year saw the self-destruction of the big teams in the CL. Still, Mou was uber-lucky to win it. Ref blunders to knock out United, Real doing the monkey on a stick thing against Monaco, AC Milan taken to the cleaners by Depor, Depor having a crucial player sent off after he jokingly kicked a friend from Porto after the game was over.

He was also lucky with Inter, I don't need to go into it. Bus ride, two yards offside Milito etc... Bojan good goal...


Still, I am not taking all credit away from him, but if we are going to give Mou props for 2004 and 2010, what are we to say about regular failures with Chelsea and Real Madrid? What are we say about the atrocious football displayed by Chelsea both this and last year? Hell, he was cowardly even with Real Madrid, and a failure as well.

 

[BBZ8800]

Back in 2004, European football was very different. The financial gap between teams like Monaco, Porto and Deportivo with AC Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona, United etc was not as great as it is today. Nowhere near to be precise.

That year saw the self-destruction of the big teams in the CL. Still, Mou was uber-lucky to win it. Ref blunders to knock out United, Real doing the monkey on a stick thing against Monaco, AC Milan taken to the cleaners by Depor, Depor having a crucial player sent off after he jokingly kicked a friend from Porto after the game was over.

He was also lucky with Inter, I don't need to go into it. Bus ride, two yards offside Milito etc... Bojan good goal...


Still, I am not taking all credit away from him, but if we are going to give Mou props for 2004 and 2010, what are we to say about regular failures with Chelsea and Real Madrid? What are we say about the atrocious football displayed by Chelsea both this and last year? Hell, he was cowardly even with Real Madrid, and a failure as well.

You don't have a sample large enough to evaluate Mou and Pep.
Mou:
-- won a CL with crappy Porto
-- failed with strong Chelsea, due to lack of luck against Liverpool in 2005 semis, and becasue the whole world turned against his team because of his behavior
-- won with not that special Inter
-- failed with Real

Pep:
-- won with Messi. It is hard to evaluate that
-- won only 2 CLs our of 4 attempts with the best team who ever walked on earth
-- he was extremely lucky against Chelsea in that Season, plus Uefa helped us a lot
-- so, if Mou was lucky with Porto, Pep was lucky at least once with Barca
-- Pep ruined the last Season with losing against poor Chelsea

-- other than that, we can't evaluate his work
-- he came to European champions Bayern and managed to turn them into a worse team for a CL level than before him

Till now, Mou is stronger than Pep.
-- he won with 2 sides who were not as good as Barca
-- and failed with strong Real

-- Pep hasn't won with anyone except with Messi's Barca
-- plus, he failed a few times with Barca also (2 times, and won once because of luck)
-- failed at Bayern till now

 

[DrPepper]

Back in 2004, European football was very different. The financial gap between teams like Monaco, Porto and Deportivo with AC Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona, United etc was not as great as it is today. Nowhere near to be precise.

That year saw the self-destruction of the big teams in the CL. Still, Mou was uber-lucky to win it. Ref blunders to knock out United, Real doing the monkey on a stick thing against Monaco, AC Milan taken to the cleaners by Depor, Depor having a crucial player sent off after he jokingly kicked a friend from Porto after the game was over.

He was also lucky with Inter, I don't need to go into it. Bus ride, two yards offside Milito etc... Bojan good goal...

Looking for excuses, I see. How is it Mourinho's fault anyway that RM or Milan lose comfortable leads against Monaco and Deportivo.

Still, I am not taking all credit away from him, but if we are going to give Mou props for 2004 and 2010, what are we to say about regular failures with Chelsea and Real Madrid? What are we say about the atrocious football displayed by Chelsea both this and last year? Hell, he was cowardly even with Real Madrid, and a failure as well.

Nothing, because nobody is perfect. Ancelotti and Guardiola have fucked up things as well. And style of football is subjective, as I said before. You don't seem to care much about Di Matteo's brand of football, though.

 

[StarLord]

With Messi, everything from this era has to be valued with some caution.

Would Barca won any CLs since 2006 if we didn't have Messi?
Hard to tell.

Is Pep that good or Messi helped him a lot?
Would Pep have won any CL if Messi hasn't existed?

When Pep will win CL with some other club, without Messi in his team, then we can evaluate his work.

Mou at least won the CL with 2 different clubs till now.
And he will maybe win it once more in the future with some 3rd team.



Valencia 2000
Valencia 2001
Bayer Leverkusen 2002
Porto 2004
Monaco 2004
Borussia 2013
Atletico 2014

About Simeone, don't rush with him.
He is awesome, but let's see how far will Atletico push this Season.
And whether they will be a one-Season wonder, or they will become a European powerhouse.

Imo, they will be ok team, but they won't repeat 2014 that soon.

Like I said above, football was very different back then. Valencia, Depor, Leverkusen, Porto and even Monaco, were not the poor underdogs they are today. Go back to the La Liga tables from back then:


La Liga 1999/2000


1. Deportivo La Coruna - 69pts goals: 66-44
2. Barcelona - 64pts goals: 70-46
3. Valencia - 64pts goals: 59-39
4. Zaragoza -63pts goals: 60-40
5. Real Madrid -62pts goals: 58-48
6. Alaves -61 pts goals: 41-37


The table above is indicative of how oligarchic football has become in the recent present. Back then, it was not that big a deal if Deportivo won the league, or if Valencia made the final, or if Porto or if Leverkusen! When Atletico did their thing however, it was under vastly different conditions, vastly worse for them as such. You simply cannot compare an "upset" from today, with "upset" from back then. It was a totally different ball game.

 

[StarLord]

You don't have a sample large enough to evaluate Mou and Pep.
Mou:
-- won a CL with crappy Porto
-- failed with strong Chelsea, due to lack of luck against Liverpool in 2005 semis, and becasue the whole world turned against his team because of his behavior
-- won with not that special Inter
-- failed with Real

Pep:
-- won with Messi. It is hard to evaluate that
-- won only 2 CLs our of 4 attempts with the best team who ever walked on earth
-- he was extremely lucky against Chelsea in that Season, plus Uefa helped us a lot
-- so, if Mou was lucky with Porto, Pep was lucky at least once with Barca
-- Pep ruined the last Season with losing against poor Chelsea

-- other than that, we can't evaluate his work
-- he came to European champions Bayern and managed to turn them into a worse team for a CL level than before him

Till now, Mou is stronger than Pep.
-- he won with 2 sides who were not as good as Barca
-- and failed with strong Real

-- Pep hasn't won with anyone except with Messi's Barca
-- plus, he failed a few times with Barca also (2 times, and won once because of luck)
-- failed at Bayern till now

See this:

Again, you seem to believe that just because I am a Barca fan, I have some kind of fetish for Pep. I do not. I like the guy, but do I think he was the main reason for our success back in the day? NO! That is precisely my point all along! But if we apply your logic, namely a logic that whenever a Mou team wins is down to Mou himself, then it would follow that when a Pep team wins, it is again down to the manager, Pep.

My point all along is that neither Pep nor Mou are as important to the game as most fans and the histrionic media made them out to be. Their role is secondary at best. Secondary at best!

This discussion over which manager has won the most is juvenile to me! I only enter it, so as to point out its inherently flawed logic. There are many factors involved in determining football outcomes, and it is almost impossible for us to quantify them, but my wager is this:

a) Quality of players

b) Level of fitness - Ultra important in CL knockout games when teams need to go at 110%. The team should be fresh in these games. That is why Inter smashed us in the San Siro in 2010. That is why we couldn't beat 10-man Chelsea in 2012. Had nightmare run of games, El Clasicos in between, bus rides, etc...

c) Blind, stupid luck.

d) Manager/tactics.

 

[Ocelot]

You don't have a sample large enough to evaluate Mou and Pep.
Mou:
-- won a CL with crappy Porto
-- failed with strong Chelsea, due to lack of luck against Liverpool in 2005 semis, and becasue the whole world turned against his team because of his behavior
-- won with not that special Inter
-- failed with Real

Pep:
-- won with Messi. It is hard to evaluate that
-- won only 2 CLs our of 4 attempts with the best team who ever walked on earth
-- he was extremely lucky against Chelsea in that Season, plus Uefa helped us a lot
-- so, if Mou was lucky with Porto, Pep was lucky at least once with Barca
-- Pep ruined the last Season with losing against poor Chelsea

-- other than that, we can't evaluate his work
-- he came to European champions Bayern and managed to turn them into a worse team for a CL level than before him

Till now, Mou is stronger than Pep.
-- he won with 2 sides who were not as good as Barca
-- and failed with strong Real

-- Pep hasn't won with anyone except with Messi's Barca
-- plus, he failed a few times with Barca also (2 times, and won once because of luck)
-- failed at Bayern till now

How was Mourinho unlucky against Liverpool with Chelsea and Guardiola not unlucky against Di Matteo's Chelsea and Against Inter? How was Guardiola Lucky and Uefa helped us in 2009 and Not Mourinho with Inter?

If you see how Inter won the champions league under Mourinho you will see that they at least got 1 major decision in favour of them from the last match of the group stages till the final round. Chelsea had at least two penalties against them, the match against us, a penalty not given to bayern in the final etc.

 

[khaled_a_d]

You don't have a sample large enough to evaluate Mou and Pep.
Mou:
-- won a CL with crappy Porto
-- failed with strong Chelsea, due to lack of luck against Liverpool in 2005 semis, and becasue the whole world turned against his team because of his behavior
-- won with not that special Inter
-- failed with Real

Pep:
-- won with Messi. It is hard to evaluate that
-- won only 2 CLs our of 4 attempts with the best team who ever walked on earth
-- he was extremely lucky against Chelsea in that Season, plus Uefa helped us a lot
-- so, if Mou was lucky with Porto, Pep was lucky at least once with Barca
-- Pep ruined the last Season with losing against poor Chelsea

-- other than that, we can't evaluate his work
-- he came to European champions Bayern and managed to turn them into a worse team for a CL level than before him

Till now, Mou is stronger than Pep.
-- he won with 2 sides who were not as good as Barca
-- and failed with strong Real

-- Pep hasn't won with anyone except with Messi's Barca
-- plus, he failed a few times with Barca also (2 times, and won once because of luck)
-- failed at Bayern till now

Pep has made this team the best team on earth ,he helped Messi to be the best player in the history ,He hasn't won CL w/o Messi ,but Messi hasn't won it w/o him too (I know he technically has a medal from 2006,but we would still won it w/o him ,he was out after 1/8 final due to injury)
Pep has done the perfect job ,he found the perfect system for the players to maximize the potential of every player and made us play the greatest football that has ever been played .he will be remembered along all time greats like Rinus Michels for what he has done for football
In summer 2008 nobody has expected this team to be half good what they turned to be

 

[BBZ8800]

How was Mourinho unlucky against Liverpool with Chelsea and Guardiola not unlucky against Di Matteo's Chelsea and Against Inter? How was Guardiola Lucky and Uefa helped us in 2009 and Not Mourinho with Inter?

If you see how Inter won the champions league under Mourinho you will see that they at least got 1 major decision in favour of them from the last match of the group stages till the final round. Chelsea had at least two penalties against them, the match against us, a penalty not given to bayern in the final etc.

Let's divide terms unlucky when you can't score from 20 shots (Barca:Chelsea in 2012) and you concede from 1 shot.
And terms unlucky with referee's decisions.

In 2005-2006 Seasons, Barca and Chelsea were imo, 2 best sides in Europe.
In 2005, Chelsea trashed us on Stamford Bridge 4:2

And later that year, they lost to Liverpool in semis thanks to this goal:

-- was that a Goal at all? (ok, it would have been a penalty surely also, but still...)
-- so, this was not a bad luck, but a questionable decision from referees

In 2006, 2 strongest teams were again Barca and Chelsea (imo), and we again faced eachother early in CL knockout rounds.
We won because Del horno got a red card (a fair red, this time)

In 2005, Mourinho didn't make any horrible mistakes, imo.
He lost to Liverpool with Garcia's goal.
In 2006, he didn't make a mistake as a coach.
Red card decided the tie.

Pep?
Why we had to play that offensively at San Siro against Inter in the first leg. we were even leading 0:1, right?
= totally his coaching fault
In 2012, he ruined the team with playing Fab and ruined the balance and our formation.
-- some bad coaching, and a lot of bad luck (Chelsea 10 players, Messi missed a penalty, Chelsea scored 2 from 2 shots)

Imo, Pep still hasn't proved himself outside of Barca, and without Messi.

 

[StarLord]

Looking for excuses, I see. How is it Mourinho's fault anyway that RM or Milan lose comfortable leads against Monaco and Deportivo.



Nothing, because nobody is perfect. Ancelotti and Guardiola have fucked up things as well. And style of football is subjective, as I said before. You don't seem to care much about Di Matteo's brand of football, though.

I didn't say it was his fault, I said he benefited from those freak occurrences.

No, style of football is not subjective. Mou plays cowardly, unimaginative, defensive football that no-one but his fanbois (and his team's fans seem to stomach)

Everyone wanted to play "like Barcelona" back in the day! Whenever a team scored a brilliant team goal, the commentator would say:"That is a Barca-esque goal" etc...

My point is that all you Mourinho fans bang on about 2004 and 2010, but downplay everything in between. You can't have one without the other!

 

[6 Ballons for Messi]

First of all, porto was not a crappy team, that shows how much you know football.
Second of all, no one needs to "prove" themselves by winning more, or in other leagues or different eras or whatever.

Judge people by what they have accomplished and not by some arbitrary criteria you set yourself just to support your opinion.
Pep could not win anything anymore for the rest of his career and that would not diminish what he did with barca not one bit.

 

[khaled_a_d]

First of all, porto was not a crappy team, that shows how much you know football.
Second of all, no one needs to "prove" themselves by winning more, or in other leagues or different eras or whatever.

Judge people by what they have accomplished and not by some arbitrary criteria you set yourself just to support your opinion.
Pep could not win anything anymore for the rest of his career and that would not diminish what he did with barca not one bit.

 

[StarLord]

You don't have a sample large enough to evaluate Mou and Pep.
Mou:
-- won a CL with crappy Porto
-- failed with strong Chelsea, due to lack of luck against Liverpool in 2005 semis, and becasue the whole world turned against his team because of his behavior
-- won with not that special Inter
-- failed with Real

Pep:
-- won with Messi. It is hard to evaluate that
-- won only 2 CLs our of 4 attempts with the best team who ever walked on earth
-- he was extremely lucky against Chelsea in that Season, plus Uefa helped us a lot
-- so, if Mou was lucky with Porto, Pep was lucky at least once with Barca
-- Pep ruined the last Season with losing against poor Chelsea

-- other than that, we can't evaluate his work
-- he came to European champions Bayern and managed to turn them into a worse team for a CL level than before him

Till now, Mou is stronger than Pep.
-- he won with 2 sides who were not as good as Barca
-- and failed with strong Real

-- Pep hasn't won with anyone except with Messi's Barca
-- plus, he failed a few times with Barca also (2 times, and won once because of luck)
-- failed at Bayern till now

I have a sample large enough, to tell me that players and fitness matter more than managers do. End of.

You say: "Mou won with a crappy Porto (they were not crappy by the way, Deco, Carvalho etc) but then you quickly go into excuse mode: "He was unlucky against Liverpool" How was he unlucky then? That ball did go over the line.

Yet you fail to see all the luck that Mou had against us in 2010. Milito off-side (clearly) Had to ride the fucking bus all the way to Milan etc...

He failed against a poorer team in Liverpool twice. He failed thrice with an awesome Real Madrid. He failed against Atletico last season, Simeone's men took his team apart at home, while Atletico was locked in a mortal title race against us and Real, and Mou was playing B-sides in the league. Total failure is TOTAL! This year, Mou had his team go out of the Cup, so that right before the PSG fixtures they would not play at all. The result: two cowardly, defensive performances for the ages! PSG with ten men since minute '30 knock the great Mourinho out. Yet he is the best manager in the world! To which I reply, even if he is, it doesn't make much of a difference!

I also disagree that Barca (not Pep) won in 2009 due to luck. Just because Chelsea were screaming for penaldos all the time, that doesn't make them so. You also seem to forget that Ballack should have been off in the first leg, and that Abidal was wrongly red-carded (yet UEFA helped us according to you)

 

[StarLord]

Imo, Pep still hasn't proved himself outside of Barca, and without Messi.

IMO, Mou hasn't proved that he can win the CL outside of Porto or Inter. Or that he can have a team play football for that matter.